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Unofficial BTS 3.13 patch

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Bhruic, Oct 5, 2007.

  1. KaytieKat

    KaytieKat Chieftain

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    Hi

    Not trying to be dense but where are they showing unhealthy faces?

    If you mean like when you mouse over the building in build menu or on the city building list and a yucky face shows even with a recycling center built then yeah that IS a change made in the buric patch in that the yucky faces will ALWAYS show up in those places even after a recycling center gets built. HOWEVER even though the yucky faces still show up in those places they should still have NO effect at the top of the screen where it lists all your cities yucky faces like so many "from poplulation" or "from power" or whatever. The "from buildings" should still no longer show up in THAT list affecting the city if recycling center is built. Just that yucky faces will show up now in the other two places I mentioned.

    This is what I meant by change being confusing for me since now when someone says yucky faces show up for buildings even after recycling center is built you have to be specific where they are showing up. Because now in some lists they will show up even with recycling centers even though recycling ceneters should still stop them from having effect at that list at top of city screen. :/

    Kaytie
     
  2. KaytieKat

    KaytieKat Chieftain

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    Hi

    Yeah BtS added new "yucky face" types that recycling centers dont fix. I think a ciity in BtS now can have something like 6-8 more yucky faces than the same city would in Vanilla or Warlords. It is annoying but it also does make health resources and techs and buildings like grocers and stuff a lil more important and Expanisve trait lots more useful hehe.

    Buric's changes didnt affect any of that. What it did do is change how yucky faces are listed in some lists. But even thoough those lists are changed a little the effects shouldnt be changed. The change is basically say when you click on a building like a Lab for a city to build. As you click it or mouse over it a window will appear showing all the effects that building has like for a Lab will say plus % to research and to spaceship build and it will also show a yucky face and after that building was built that youcky face and any other building yucky faces would be counted in the total overall healthy/yucky city report at top of window. They would be in category of "from buildings" But if a city had a recycling center then the yucky face wouldnt show up in that window anymore and the overall health report wouldnt have any "from buildings" yucky faces.

    But Buric changed it so that yucky face STILL shows up there in THAT window even after a recycling center is built. HOWEVER the recycling center should STILL keep that yucky face from having an effect on that city meaning at the overall health report list at top of city screen a recycling center should mean no "from buildings" yucky faces get listed there. Like I said VERY confusing for me hehe.

    Kaytie
     
  3. DrewBledsoe

    DrewBledsoe Veteran QB

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    But you also get the "random event" almost always that gives 90~% to get 2:health: with temporary happiness and -1 or 3 pop penalties....that helps
     
  4. Omegon3

    Omegon3 Chieftain

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    Thanks Aquatic!!! Enjoy the water...
     
  5. Omegon3

    Omegon3 Chieftain

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    Thanks to both Kaytie and Mr. Bledsoe on understanding the "yucky" (love that term!!) faces showing up on my city screen. It just surprised me when I saw them since I am extremely diligent in keeping an eye on my cities' health (and happiness!) and I was surprised when I saw that the recycling centers APPEARED to have no impact -- even though, come to think of, my cities were healthier afterwards...
     
  6. Aquatic

    Aquatic Child of Surprises

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    Conclusion:
    It is a grey area, because the cities that eventually make up the colony were part of the Master's civilization but on their becoming a colony, and therefore a separate entity, they are no longer part of the Master's civilization.

    Therefore, the cities belonged in the past to the Master and in the present to the colony.

    In the past they contributed to research. In the present they are a separate entity that, insofar as it is a new entity, did not contribute to reserch.

    In the past they were ruled by the Master, in the present they are ruled by the vassal leader.

    As the Master's cities they worked to his or her ends, as the vassal leader's they now work to his or her ends.

    It would seem that it is fair that the cities, on becoming a separate entity and under the control of the vassal leader, should inherit everything that the Master has. They are part of the Master's civilization that is given separate identity. But their being a new enitity means that they are now under a new leader, and they work for the new leader's ends. This new leader, however, did not research the techs (or direct them to particiate in their research). The new leader (under No Tech Brokering), therefore, should not have the ability to trade them. IMO! ;)
     
  7. _alphaBeta_

    _alphaBeta_ Chieftain

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    Hey Bhruic! What I was trying to say is that I was in favor of option (2). I keep it simple in my mind. When someone plays with "no tech brokering" on it is because they don't want the AI trading away their tech. Period. When you form a colony, they can trade away your tech. Doesn't add up for me.

    Why would anyone want the colony to trade away their techs? I can't think of any examples. If you do for some reason, the option would be there to play with "no tech brokering" off.

    We all come from different games and situations. I usually make colonies on Terra maps and they're colonized pretty much the next turn from being founded. Therefore, they played no role in researching anything. In fact, they hindered it more than helped because they dragged down my economy with maintenance costs.

    In light of this information, I see creating colonies a big liability, and will avoid it. That's a shame though, because it is a good feature and colonies are supposed to be helpful, not make everyone else more advanced at your expense.
     
  8. KaytieKat

    KaytieKat Chieftain

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    Hi

    Yeah that event very helpful but at least for me it doesnt happen EVERY game. it is still nice though when it happens it just not something you can really depend on everygame. Another nice random event is one that have option of giving plus 1 health to all drydocks.

    I am NOT sure but I THINK this is actually what buric was trying to fix with changes to how yucky faces get listed. I think what hepened with that event was since drydocks give plus 1 yuckyface normally when that even happens instead of plus health showing up next to drydock in the bulding list the yucky face just disapeared from drydocks in the building lists at left side of screen. Kind of like instead of showing plus 1 yuckyface and one healthy cross they would just cancel out and neither get listed there. They still affected the overall health of the city in the health report they just didnt show up in the city building list. But some people were still going "hey where is my healthy cross my drydock is supposed to get"

    So he fixed it so that the yuckyface and the healthy cross would both show up next to drydocks on that list. But as a result yuckyfaces for ALL buildings now ALWAYS show up on that list even after a recycling center is built.

    This doesnt mean how the yuckyfaces affect the city is changed or how they are listed in overall health report is changed just how they are listed in building reports.

    But like I said this is JUST a guess. After 1.10 or so there was a change listed as "building that give both healthiness and unhealthiness now display both in building pop ups inseatd of neither showing up" And execpt for drydocks getting plus 1 healthy form that event I cant think of any other building that gives BOTH healthiness and unhealthiness. So I am just ASSUMING that is what he was trying to fix. It just had "added feature" that buildings that give unhealthiness will ALWAYS have the unhealthiness listed in building pop ups even if a recycling center is built and that unhealthiness no longer is having an effect. But you know what happens when ppl assume hehe :p

    Kaytie
     
  9. Horace

    Horace Likes to ski

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    I disagree.

    If you dont want your colony to trade away techs once you release them from your rule, dont release them. You no longer have charge of them they can trade as they see fit (the techs they/you researched).

    Thats the trade off for releasing them isnt it?

    My 2c :)
     
  10. DelphiDie

    DelphiDie Chieftain

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    This is something that I´ve been thinking about a lot since I read the patch notes. I also got that event once, and I think this fix is not just to show the health bonus and the unhealthiness for the buildings, but it in fact renders the event usefull after you build an recycling center.

    Without bhruic´s patch it works as the following:

    Without the event you get 1 yucky face for drydocks, if you build an recycling center this is canceled out.

    With the event you get no yucky face and of course there is no gain for the drydock when you build the recycling center.

    With bhruic´s patch the change is the following:

    Without the event there is no change, but if you get the event you now get 1 yucky face and 1 health cross. After you build a recycling center the yucky face is canceld out (still visible at the building though), but the +1 health cross is added.

    So I would asume with his patch you gain +1 health after building a recycling center and this change is not just for show. But I might be wrong.
     
  11. _alphaBeta_

    _alphaBeta_ Chieftain

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    I would think the answer would be: If you don't want your colony to trade away techs once you release them from your rule, turn on "no tech brokering." It seems silly that people who don't agree with the AI trading techs away would have to avoid the whole concept of colonies. This option was created by Firaxis to stop the AI from doing this.

    Remember, I'm not saying to specifically stop all colonies from trading techs. I'm saying the transfer of techs should be regarded as "being traded" to the colony. This change would only have an effect if you're playing with "no tech brokering." If you never play with this option, nothing of what I'm suggesting will effect you.

    The real question is how people who play with this option feel about this. It seems logical to me that anyone playing with this option would not want the new colony to trade away their techs. That's why they're playing with this option to begin with.

    If you play with unrestricted tech trading (both options off), by all means I think colonies should be able to trade everything they get.
     
  12. Aquatic

    Aquatic Child of Surprises

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    Ah, but this, while asserting the liberty of the new and separate enitity, claims that the new and separate entity should be able at the same time to behave as if it were still, in respect of trading techs, identical with the parent body. That would appear to be slightly illogical.

    The right to trade techs cannot be inherited because 1) the colony is a new and separate entity and 2) in the person of that colony, as it were, it has not done the research. (Copyright still belongs to the original owner.)

    If the colony has no right to trade these techs, it ought not have the ability... Or, to put it another way, you could simply say that it rather mucks up a No Tech Brokering game!
     
  13. Stilgar08

    Stilgar08 Chieftain

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    Sorry, Aquatic but I disagree. The colony HAS the right to trade these techs...

    You can not just pick out the good stuff from creating a colony, e.g. reduce your cost and concentrate on your Empire, maybe even have a vassal-colony that can do the research on left-behind-techs for you and at the same time "forbid" them to trade the techs they had.
    They got the techs because they were your citizens before YOU told them they could go and have their own state!
    Therefore copyright-goes to both you and them. Before you "liberized" them they helped getting the techs you have and they contributed their part to your technical advances (in Civ IV in form of beaker-contribution)!
    You wouldn't like it if those beakers would be withdrawn from your account when the colony gets freed. You would have to wait several turns just to get back to zero while everyone else is just continuing to research...

    Haven't there been some examples when it came to "name-copyrights" to this very series CIV (CTP,ToT and other "spin-offs" without Sid)? James Bond had two different right-holders some time ago... (Never say never) - I'm sure others could come up with more examples...

    Think of it this way: colonies are the kids of your civ and they get the old familiy car to ride with it and do whatever they like to do. You give them a kickstart into live and if you're a good "parents" they might help you out in the "old days"! :p
     
  14. _alphaBeta_

    _alphaBeta_ Chieftain

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    What about if you settle two cities on a foreign body and free them that very next turn? They contributed nothing, and got all of your techs. I think the advantages of a colony are matched with the fact that the colony inherited every single tech you have. The ability to freely trade all of that puts it over the top in a "no tech brokering" game.

    Please everyone, we're not discussing whether this should be allowed. It's whether it should be allowed in a "no tech brokering game."

    Can we think of any examples where people running a "no tech brokering" game would want a colony to trade their techs?
     
  15. Stilgar08

    Stilgar08 Chieftain

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    You created settlers from one of your older cities, didn't you - They are the placeholder for the new cities to get founded... those people DID their contribution...

    In that case that might be different (didn't realized that when posting ;) ) I don't play no tech-brokering games, so I don't mind...
     
  16. KaytieKat

    KaytieKat Chieftain

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    Hi

    Here is my opinion on the "tech brokering" deal for colonies.

    I think it makes sense that colonies inherited from the master that the master didnt research and are undtradeable by master should also count as untradeable by colony.

    Any techs inherited by the colony that master researched and count as tradeable should be counted as tradeable by the colony too. And if any techs in the 'tradeable" list are techs the you dont want to risk being traded then that really should just be part of cost/benefit analysis of whether it would be worth it or not to make a colony or not.

    Here is one other thing to consider and this is from someonee who pretty much ALWAYS plays with no tech brokering checked. Yeah current colony system may not be in spirit of no tech brokering and may muck it up a little I dont think it TOTALLY destroys a no tech brokering game since it wont be like ALWAYS as soon as you trade a key tech to one civ that civ will make a colony and then that colony instantly trades it to everybody else. So maybe even if one or two or a few techs you dont want getting spread too soon get out it will still be a rare game where ALL of them get out and for most part techs will still NOT be traded around AS MUCH as they would in a regular game where tech brokering is allowed which is in spirit of that option so i think it falls into more of the "minor annoying" category than game breaking.

    So maybe it might be a lower issue than say the coorporate exec deal or how apparently in BtS the naval combat system is such that in a mixed naval stack a empty transport is chosen to defend over a battleship.

    Kaytie
     
  17. ori

    ori Repair Guy Super Moderator

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    You are ;) You always get the +1 :health: and without the recycling center also the +1 :yuck: after this event - even in 3.13. The problem was only that the building info did not reflect this correctly, the game did register it correctly though. So Bhruic's change is strictly a display fix not a change that affects the event results (they were correct in 3.13 anyway). If this display fix causes other weirdness that might cause more trouble than the original bug, but I think that is Bhruic's call.
     
  18. Aquatic

    Aquatic Child of Surprises

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    In a non No Tech Brokering game, I would agree with your disargeement!:)

    I don't think it is quite the same in a No Tech Brokering game, where everyone ought to abide by the rule: you research it, you trade it.

    Once the colony is formed, and so has a new, distinct identity, it is like a new person joining the game and ought to be treated as such, with the same limitations everyone else has.

    Still, given that it is a grey area, I'll wait and see!
     
  19. Horace

    Horace Likes to ski

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    I agree with KaytieKat. I also play always with no tech brokering.

    Yes it is like Bhuric said. I doubt everyone is going to agree on the subject cos everyone has their own opinions :)
     
  20. qwert

    qwert Chieftain

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    I have been triying to download the patch, how do i install it after dowloading.

    Thank you.
     

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