CivAgamemnon
King
Hmm. Wodan and Roland present good points there. I'd rather have Bhruic focused on the bug fixes.
Maybe Wodan or Roland, or even Solver could make the Unaltered Game Mod?
I'm jesting, dudes, mmk?
Unofficial BTS 3.13 patch
- Thread starter Bhruic
- Start date
Hmm. Wodan and Roland present good points there. I'd rather have Bhruic focused on the bug fixes.
Maybe Wodan or Roland, or even Solver could make the Unaltered Game Mod?
I'm jesting, dudes, mmk?
jray
King
Personally I'd prefer just two versions, one for obvious plain ol' fixes, and another that adds anything with any reasonable doubt of Firaxis' intention. Yeah, I know it's subjective, but we could be conservative.
Looking at the changelogs for 1.07/1.02, I would divide the fixes thusly:
Unaltered Gameplay:
- Fixed bug where culture/espionage would not display for building popups
- Fixed bug where spies would be ejected from a square when declaring war
- Fixed bug that caused the AI to trade for resources it already had (appears as grossly uneven trades)
- Refixed trade bug
- Refixed culture/espionage display bug
- Fixed bug with Warlords attaching to units when the Great General is part of a selection group
- Prevented new Colonies from overwriting previously existing Civs
- No longer displays new Colony message if player hasn't met Master Civ
- Workers on Transports no longer perform capture of cities (thereby displacing all other units) when city is captured
- Units considered "unsuitable" for city defense will no longer be prevented from healing in cities
- No longer able to base an unlimited number of air units in vassal's cities
- Can found Corporations under Mercantilism
- Vassal's spies will no longer be "caught" in your territory
- Amount of time worked taken into consideration by city plot selection (thanks SevenSpirits)
- Fixed a bug preventing war declarations via Worldbuilder
- Civilopedia promotions no longer display a unit class if only a subsection of that class can get the promotion
- The Vassal of a Capitulating Civ is freed before peace treaty
- Reactivated the Glance diplomatic screen ("Altered" since AFAIK it does give some information-- such as exact numerical values of AI-AI attitudes-- that is not available elsewhere)
Of course, I'm thrilled to have simply this *one* version from Bhruic right now. I'm not trying to complain
. But as more and more issues get piled on, I foresee an interest in both Unaltered Gameplay and Altered Gameplay versions.
jray
King
I'm wondering if the AI making too many Corp Execs issue has a simple fix. Apparently the AI considers execs to be the latest & greatest city garrison unit 
. Probably a long shot, but I wonder if it might be worth checking whether an obvious tweak is possible.
. Probably a long shot, but I wonder if it might be worth checking whether an obvious tweak is possible.CivAgamemnon
King
@ Jray: It's called the conservative right-wing defense 
And guys, relax. It's a joke, not a flame thing.
And guys, relax. It's a joke, not a flame thing.
KrikkitTwo
Immortal
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2004
- Messages
- 12,418
I'm not sure but I think the workers still build forts when automated in 3.13? are you going to fix this too?
I assume this is a joke, workers Should build forts.
TheWilltoAct
I am observe
... wha? Why should they build forts...
Welnic
Emperor
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2006
- Messages
- 1,057
The Glance tab doesn't give you any info you can't get elsewhere. If you go to the first diplo tab, click on a civ and you can see their relationships with everyone else. If you hover over another civ it gives you the full rundown on the plus and minuses. You do have to manually add those to come up with the actual number. Which is why the Glance tab is so much easier.
jray
King
Ah, thanks for explaining. I guess I've been spoiled to always have that Glance tab since I started Civving, and so I've never had to look elsewhere for that info.
Wodan
Deity
FWIW that's my opinion also.
Regardless, I definitely think it would be wrong to force a peace on the old vassal, which would mean you can't declare war for 10 turns. So, whatever Bh decides I think this condition shouldn't be allowed to happen.
Stay at war = seems best; the old vassal could always capitulate to you and/or ask for peace.
Go to peace but allow immediate redeclare = ok (though this seems odd because you will get extra dip bonus with your old war allies for having a "new war", and you also will get an extra dip negative with others for declaring on "their friend").
Forced capitulate to you = might be ok but he might not even meet the conditions for capitulation but the program would have to set the freedom conditions so this would be hairy to program, if it's even possible.
Wodan
Forts provide access to a luxury/resource without the bonuses that come with working the tile. If that item is outside your cities' fat crosses, there's no loss in bonus and a gain in defense. The AI is also smart enough to use forts as canals.
_alphaBeta_
King
Wouldn't forts all over be dangerous for you? I thought the defensive bonus of a fort applies to whoever is sitting on it regardless of where it is. With too many forts everywhere, you give them a protected path to your city.
OR, do fort defensive bonuses not apply in enemy territory?
OR, do fort defensive bonuses not apply in enemy territory?
I'll present my reasoning here: If you have a Master/Vassal at war with you, and the Vassal decides to leave the Master, and then the Master makes peace with you, the Vassal doesn't get peace as well. Because the Vassal has split, the Vassal (or ex-Vassal now) has to make a separate deal with you. In the case where the Master capitulates, the Vassal is going to split from the Master in the exact same fashion above. Therefore the Vassal shouldn't get a "free" peace treaty out of it. I consider that a bug. The game should work the same way in both circumstances. Now if you'd prefer that I solve that by granting a Vassal "free" peace whenever it breaks from its Master, I can do that. But I don't believe that's the prefered solution.
Oh, and I just wanted to point out that I also fully agree with:
There's nothing stopping you from making peace with the ex-Vassal if that's what you want to do. But you shouldn't be forced to.
Bh
Oh, and I just wanted to point out that I also fully agree with:
There's nothing stopping you from making peace with the ex-Vassal if that's what you want to do. But you shouldn't be forced to.
Bh
eric_
Emperor
That's pretty sound logic.
Capitulated vassels work on the basis that they surrender to there master, they can break from there master only should there master become to weak to hold influence over them, currently if there land/pop etc go over/under 50% they can potencially break away, this is the only way for them to break away from a forced vassaledge.
If the master capitulates to another player then he is clearly to weak to continue to hold sway over a forced vassel and it's quite correct they be released, such a vassel should not automatically gain a peace treaty with the player, they should however always agree to one should the player want it, since a civ who has capitulated to another civ should not want to keep a war going vs someone who has just taken down his master since his master had them under vassaledge through force of arms, and your force of arms is clearly better otherwise you would not have conquered the master, so such a vassel should accept peace without hesitation, if the player offers a treaty.
For a mutual vassaledge (one done by consent from both parties), the other civ should not automatically want to sign a treaty as above, but should do so based on the standard civ modifiers of if a civ accepts peace or not, perhaps a positive modifier should be spun in taking into account it's no longer a war of 2 vs 1 so clearly the war now a more serious one for the other civ, but consensual vassels should make there own descisions on war or peace with you after the master civ falls, captitulated one's should seek peace but not be guranteed it (player choice)
so yeah agree with current implementation although if it does'nt include the capitulated vassel of a fallen master seeking peace as a preferance to continued war then i think it should be added for logic reasons
If the master capitulates to another player then he is clearly to weak to continue to hold sway over a forced vassel and it's quite correct they be released, such a vassel should not automatically gain a peace treaty with the player, they should however always agree to one should the player want it, since a civ who has capitulated to another civ should not want to keep a war going vs someone who has just taken down his master since his master had them under vassaledge through force of arms, and your force of arms is clearly better otherwise you would not have conquered the master, so such a vassel should accept peace without hesitation, if the player offers a treaty.
For a mutual vassaledge (one done by consent from both parties), the other civ should not automatically want to sign a treaty as above, but should do so based on the standard civ modifiers of if a civ accepts peace or not, perhaps a positive modifier should be spun in taking into account it's no longer a war of 2 vs 1 so clearly the war now a more serious one for the other civ, but consensual vassels should make there own descisions on war or peace with you after the master civ falls, captitulated one's should seek peace but not be guranteed it (player choice)
so yeah agree with current implementation although if it does'nt include the capitulated vassel of a fallen master seeking peace as a preferance to continued war then i think it should be added for logic reasons
Quagga
Former Dictator
I'll just put in my vote for a patch that attempts only to fix things that are clearly bugs. Any behavior that is subject to debate -- such as the above-debated vassal capitulation behavior -- does not fall into that category.
I think the whole "Vassal at War" thing needs to be redone and made consistant. I've always been annoyed about how when the civ I'm at war with capitulates to someone else, I'm automatically forced into peace. I have to declare war again (and get more negative modifiers) if I want to wipe them off the face of the earth? It'd be nice if it opened up a popbox asking if I wanted to continue my war. I suppose a similar interface could be used for making peace.
