Useless colosseums?

[morchuflex]

And sometimes you need early temples to expand borders or fight cultural wars. Plus, REL civs have temples at half-price, while noone has cheap colosseums (colossea?).

 

[Choffy]

I don't build temple, neither colosseums.
Focus on Marketplace.

 

[morchuflex]

Anyone who argues they never need temples or colosseums should play some games on the following setting: large map, archipelago, 80% water, level at least Emperor. Now, if you can do without these buildings, I'm eager to learn how. The reason: on arch maps, you hardly ever have more than one lux type on your island. Since you generally can't establish early contacts because there's too much water between you and the other civs, you can't have access to multiple luxuries. Hence the need for happiness buildings OR a massive huge of the lux slider.
But on Pangea, of course, you can usually secure several luxuries or trade for them, making temples and colosseums low priorities.

 

[vmxa]

I know you were being facetious, but temple are prereqs for cath and you want to get that 1000 year double culture from them. In addition to what Scuffer mentioned, they are your first oportunity to expand your towns borders.

 

[SJ Frank]

Anyone who argues they never need temples or colosseums should play some games on the following setting: large map, archipelago, 80% water, level at least Emperor. Now, if you can do without these buildings, I'm eager to learn how. The reason: on arch maps, you hardly ever have more than one lux type on your island. Since you generally can't establish early contacts because there's too much water between you and the other civs, you can't have access to multiple luxuries. Hence the need for happiness buildings OR a massive huge of the lux slider.
But on Pangea, of course, you can usually secure several luxuries or trade for them, making temples and colosseums low priorities.

You pay 1gpt for each happyface using temples and colosseums, and you pay the exact same amount if you use the lux slider, therefore, the actual effect on your civ's economy is the same. It only "feels" better to build the happiness buildings, because it looks like your lux slider is lower

The real reason for needing those building on the map settings that you mentioned (and I do agree with you that those buildings tend to be used on those settings) is that there simply isn't anything else to build. What are you going to do? Build military when there isn't even a safe ocean passage Still, it's better to focus on the commerce and/or science buildings first, and run that "huge" lux in the mean time.

 

[Nicci]

I don't build temple, neither colosseums.
Focus on Marketplace.

why? it's best to have all 3 . . . . besides that, it takes quite a while before u can build marketplaces. in the meantime u may need some happines and culture. if u don't build temples and colloseums, ur cities will run to a neighbour with a higher cultural value . . .

 

[Nicci]

You pay 1gpt for each happyface using temples and colosseums, and you pay the exact same amount if you use the lux slider, therefore, the actual effect on your civ's economy is the same. It only "feels" better to build the happiness buildings, because it looks like your lux slider is lower

mmmm. i'm going to try that. if u don't wanna build units u can build wealth.
maybe the guy that said the thing about 'concentrating in marketplaces' was on to something.
i never did this, so does ur empire expand cultural if u don't build temples in the early game?

 

[Nicci]

i'm right in the middle of this game now. it's 30 BC. large map. continents. i play with persia. i only built barracks, granaries and units. oh, and i just finished the great library without having a Golden Age yet. i never played this way, but is going very well. a few turns ago i set the lux slider to 10% and in the meantime i was saving money . . . building an army.

 

[tR1cKy]

You pay 1gpt for each happyface using temples and colosseums, and you pay the exact same amount if you use the lux slider, therefore, the actual effect on your civ's economy is the same. It only "feels" better to build the happiness buildings, because it looks like your lux slider is lower

You may think twice about this matter. When you raise the lux slider, it goes on 10% steps. Then, if your city is producing, say, 50 gold, you pay 5 gold per turn, not one, for a 10% luxury bonus. I cannot confirm nor deny if these 5 golds are effectively translated into 5 extra happy faces... but what if you need only one or two of them? You end up wasting money for nothing.

There are situations in which it's convenient to use the lux slider. And there are some in which it's better to build a temple of some extra happiness building. Many factors play an important role, such your civ's attributes, the number of cities effectively requiring some extra happiness, the amount of money spent without benefits etc..

 

[Zelda's Man]

@SJ Frank: Of course you may be right that the lux slider does spend one gold per person, but unfortunately, except in the early game, you cannot spend just one gold to make someone happy by using the slider. It is based on the percentage of your income. So moving the slider one space will actually cost you 10 gpt (with a 100gpt budget) while the coliseum would only cost 2 gpt.

That being said, there are situations where a coliseum is necessary, but most of the time I don't build them. I build lots of temples though and cathedrals in my central cities. The cultural expansion is necessary for land grab (and score).

 

[AbuHab]

I suppose that temples come at the start of the game where you might not have all the luxuries you want, and before marketplaces multipies their value.

Plus, a Temple is the first thing you can build (other than a Wonder) that gives a city that all-important boost from 0 to 10 culture point, which increases its radius to the full 21 squares.

 

[morchuflex]

You pay 1gpt for each happyface using temples and colosseums, and you pay the exact same amount if you use the lux slider, therefore, the actual effect on your civ's economy is the same. It only "feels" better to build the happiness buildings, because it looks like your lux slider is lower

I think there's a little flaw in this logic: when you use the luxury slider, it's true you make one happy face with one gold... But all gold coins aren't equal. You have to make a distinction between base gold and actual gold (could find a better name, but I'm lazy). Base gold is what you get from tiles. Actual gold is what you really get after base gold has been modified by all these buildings that have a multiplying effect (MP, Bank, Lib, Univ etc).
In the situation you describe, you're talking about one BASE gold; but if the city has a Library, each base gold dedicated to research is transformed into 1.5 gold actually going to science funding. So, your argument is only valid in the early game when the city has none of these buildings that multiply gold.
Conversely, buildings (like temples etc) do cost gold to maintain, but this time we're talking about "actual" gold. If the city has a MP, then the maintenance of a temple only costs 2/3 of one base gold... So, it's slightly cheaper than using the lux slider.

 

[Nicci]

You may think twice about this matter. When you raise the lux slider, it goes on 10% steps. Then, if your city is producing, say, 50 gold, you pay 5 gold per turn, not one, for a 10% luxury bonus. I cannot confirm nor deny if these 5 golds are effectively translated into 5 extra happy faces... but what if you need only one or two of them? You end up wasting money for nothing.

not necessarily true. as i said before, i'm trying it right now. it's early middle ages now and i did not build one temple or colloseum. i have 2 luxuries.
some small cities don't need any extra happiness, because they are happy as it is. the larger cities need something extra. u can do this by sliding the lux-slider or turn a worker into a happy face. if u turn up the slider, u might spent to much money and u'd be better of building a temple, but instead u can just turn a 'working citizen' into a happy face. it'll only cost you what that specific citizen is producing.
i must say, i'm quiet surprised with this game. i only build improvements/units that help growth or improve the strength of my army.
usually i waited with building an aquaduct untill i had a colloseum or a cathedral in that city. now i just build the thing and if lack of happiness is a problem i solve it like i explained before . . . .
and it is working. plenty of time to build a very strong army and my cities are bigger then they would be the way played untill now.

 

[vmxa]

The real issue with no temple and just slider, is you do not a a single point of culture from the slider. So if you do not have a temple or some cultural building, your border does not expand.

This leads a host of problems. You can tell someone to stay out of your land, if it is not coveed by your borders. You can work the tiles that are not in your border.

If you play where you only get one content citizen, it can be hard to get by on the slider. You are paying for happiness in towns that had no issue in the first place with the slider. On and on.

 

[Nicci]

The real issue with no temple and just slider, is you do not a a single point of culture from the slider. So if you do not have a temple or some cultural building, your border does not expand.

not true. they expand. maybe no as fast or as wide as with a temple, but they expand. and don't forget: in the early middle ages u start building cathedrals. they do have cultural points.
besides, there is no law against an occaisional temple if u feel culture is growing too slow.
the point is, u can do without temples and colloseums. and u can use all those shields for something else . . .

 

[Gogf]

not true. they expand. maybe no as fast or as wide as with a temple, but they expand. and don't forget: in the early middle ages u start building cathedrals. they do have cultural points.
besides, there is no law against an occaisional temple if u feel culture is growing too slow.
the point is, u can do without temples and colloseums. and u can use all those shields for something else . . .

That would be wrong. If you do not build cultural buildings, your boarders will not expand at all.

 

[Nicci]

who said anything about not building anything cultural? i'm building libraries. u can't build these right away, but soon enough. in my current game i have i bit over 2000 cultural points. no temple or colloseum in sight . . . .

 

[Eastian]

I still find them useful for removing all unhappy faces in order to get WLTKD and reduce corruption.

 

[microbe]

You pay 1gpt for each happyface using temples and colosseums, and you pay the exact same amount if you use the lux slider, therefore, the actual effect on your civ's economy is the same. It only "feels" better to build the happiness buildings, because it looks like your lux slider is lower

You cannot precisely control how many gold go to lux. You only get a slider with each step of 10%.

If your capital is making 40 base gpt, you at least let 4gpt go to lux, even if you only need one more happy face.

It's not even considering sci or commerce multiplier as markets or libraries.

So in one word, what you said is completely wrong.

 

[Nicci]

he might be wrong, but think of all the shields wasted on temples and colosseums. u guys only talk about the cost of a temple. take into acount the time and shields u wasted.
not saying there is no point in building them, but in my current game i'm proving there is a point in not building them.