useless units?

Can you even use explorers to go into terrain without open borders? I don't know cause it's so useless i don't make them. Maybe there is a tiny bit of usefullness, if an explorer can go into territory to (explore) without having to sign open-border agreement.
 
Wodan said:
Explorers... yeah... useless in Civ3 and still useless in CivIV. I guess -maybe- on a New World map. Still, I'd rather just land a Knight or Cavalry. They can kick some butt while they're exploring.

Explorers are available much, much earlier than Knights. And you can't carry Knights on Caravels, anyway. Do you really want to wait for Astronomy before you explore overseas??
 
Whoa! Hold on here!

Explorers: Wonderful in Terra games. Absolutely wonderful. Stick them on caravels and send them off. Even in Continents games they're still quite good, as most AIs are happy to give you open borders, but not all are so eager to trade maps. Drop off an explorer in there (esp. with guerilla II and woodsman II) and he'll reveal it all for you, and keep running around to keep tabs on everything. One final use that nobody seems to consider: pillaging. He's an excellent unit for that. With the two mobility upgrades on him, he's a mean pillaging machine, and if you stick him on a hill and/or in a woods, he's tough to take out. Underestimate this fellow at your own risk.

Subs: They aren't for straight-up killing. They're for weakening naval units before your destroyers or battleships deliver the coup de grace. With both flanking upgrades, they retreat 80% of the time. EIGHTY percent. That's quite reliable. Even if you don't have any other ships nearby, a wolf pack of subs (3 would do nicely) should be able to take out just about anything. Take two with flanking upgrades and a third with combat upgrades and you've got a nasty 1-2-3 punch that'll take out battleships with few worries, and likely no casualties on your side. Finally, don't forget they can transport spies, and spies on subs can sabotage water improvements like fishing boats and oil drilling platforms. This is essential for late-game oil denial to enemies who have no access to land oil. At the very least, your subs can slip in under the borders of an enemy who refuses to open his borders (hello Tokugawa) to drop off your spies and to spy on his coastal cities. What's wrong with that?

Machine guns: Excellent defensive units for the riflemen era, and still all right for the infantry era. With first strike upgrades, they can take on many gunpowder units at once, and are good for guarding both stacks and cities. Good guards for cannons/artillery before tanks appear.

SAM infantry are excellent in the right situations. They're obviously good against helicopters, and keep your tanks from getting mulched by gunships (which can be a bit of a rude surprise), but the extra air defense they grant is a nice side benefit. One or two of these guys in a city or in a stack can do a lot of damage to careless bombers who fly by. SAM Infantry aren't really an optional unit - either you need them badly, or you don't need them at all. That's just the sort of unit they are.

Ironclads - they're not stellar, that's for sure. But if you're the first around the globe, their movement increases to 3 (50% more movement points, sadly) and they become a bit more capable of being attackers. I personally suggest using them to defend your naval borders and your resources. They do an excellent job at keeping frigates and galleons further away than they'd like.

Musketmen - it really depends on your tech progression. It might be a little while before grenadiers, in which case these fellows offer a nice dependable strength 9 for all-purpose needs. Nothing flashy, but they're solid all-around troops that don't suffer from the longbowman's fear of leaving the city walls or the crossbowman's specialized uses against melee units.

Marines: These guys are actually better than Infantry due to higher base strength, but I think it's the fact that they're come in competing with tanks that puts people off. I find them useful for naval attacks on poorly-defended rear enemy cities that my ground forces aren't getting too very quickly. I also find myself replacing fallen infantrymen with them to guard artillery or play base defense before mechanized infantry show up. They're even more versatile than normal infantry and the potential for naval assaults is just gravy.

Pikemen - these are a lot like SAM infantry - you either need them badly, or you don't need them at all. It highly depends on whether your opponent is using knights or not yet when you get them, as your macemen should be quite capable of mopping the floor with any enemy horse archers by this point in the game. However, unless you've got war elephants (which isn't anything to bank on), you will need these to dispatch the knights who can easily take out your macemen and various archer units and catapaults. Speaking of war elephants, you will also need pikemen to reliably dispatch those beasts, as they seem to enjoy coming with the shock promotion just to trash spearmen, which leaves them very hard to counter. I personally find one or two pikemen per stack (either attacking stacks or high-defense cities) with combat I and medic are quite good. If there are cavalry about, the pikemen can take them. If there aren't, they lurk at the back and play doctor. Helpful either way.

I don't think there are any useless units in this game (except the poor jaguar warrior). There are some very situational units, and some that are poor if your tech advancement rapidly obsoletes them, but this is not always the case. Everything has its use, and it's only up to the player to make the best of that unit's function.
 
I agree with you on explorers; I always send off 2 or 3 of them on my first caravels.

They are quite capable of defending themselves against the barbs one encounters in unexplored areas with Woodsman II (they get this straight away if your town has barracks). It is frustrating that they cannot attack the barbs though, especially the single barb warrior you find sitting on a goody hut ... maybe they should be altered a bit to enable them to attack barbarians only.
 
My post seems to have disappeared, odd.
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The key problem with Machine Guns that after Steam Power, you have the choice of going for Assembly Line or Railroads...usually you'll go for Assembly Line, since it gives factories, infantry, and allows you to begin the Pentagon. After researching Assembly Line the next twenty turns or so for me are tied up building factories and power plants, and by the time they're done I've researched Combustion and Industrialization, and start building tanks. I just don't have the oppertunity around that time period to devote to building new defensive units.

They also can't upgrade to Mech infantry later on down the line, so any production put into them sort of ends up being wasted, unless you upgrade them to SAM infantry, my next topic.


I think the problem with SAM infantry right now is due to a chain of causes. SAM infantry's main purpose is to counter lots of gunships, but the AI almost never builds gunships unless you build a ton of tanks. They never build them because gunships' main purpose (other than killing tanks) is pillaging behind enemy lines, and currently the AI has no scripts relating directly to pillaging.

They'll pillage on the way to a city, and if the attack force has bad enough odds; they'll attack a pillaging force if it poses a threat to their cities, but other than that there are no direct "pillage" or "counter-pillage" scripts in the AI routine. I think when the pillaging gets coded we'll see a lot more use of gunships, improving the value of SAM infantry, and thus the value of machine gunners. Nonetheless, allowing machine guns to upgrade to mech infantry would still be very beneficial for guns built for city defense.


I think Ironclads could be the perfect intermediate stage between wooden ships and modern destroyers if properly reworked. They could possibly be replaced with a Dreadnought class ship, a WWI - era vessel to bridge the gap between sails and steel.

Subs just aren't powerful enough. I've found that anything I can do with subs in combat, I can do better with an equivilant number of hammers of carriers + destroyers. Figher-laden carriers can also be used to bombard improvements, strafe troops, intercept enemy fighters, and can be rebased instantly; they also die even less frequently than subs do. Usually I only build one or two subs, to transport spies.

Explorers are very useful. You get them a tech before Caravels, so you can have a few built and ready when your ships pop out and accompany them around the world to drop off on new continents and chart other leaders' territory. Explorers are also my ideal medics, since they are very cheap and move 2 squares regardless of terrain. They also have 4 strength and +20% defense in hills, forests, or jungles, so they hold up pretty well against barbarians or when the last man standing in a stack. They're classified as recon, so nothing gets combat bonuses against them.

Marines have a higher base strength than Infantry, but are also proportionatly more expensive. So they're more powerful, but cost more...and usually for behind-the-front-line city garrisions it's just as effective to have two infantry as two marines. I re-station tanks or aircraft in the area if there's enemy forces nearby, so it's mostly just need to have some unit in the city, and Infantry cost less. Whenever there's a river near a city I just maneuver around it so the entire army can attack without a penalty. On the other hand, if Machine Guns became more useful, Marines would as well.

Pikemen are useful. I always bring a few along to keep the AI from building too many mounted units. They're not good on the offensive though, since macemen or crossbowmen are likely to defend in a stack.
 
bigargon said:
pikeman very useless and under powered

I d not find pikmen to be underpowered. I was in a war with Cyrus in the middle ages and used pikemen very successfully against him.

I had the disadvantage of having no horses, so I declared war to get his horses and a few of his cities. His Knights were no match for my pikes (with a few promotions). The +100% vs mounted really comes in handy.
 
Crossbowmen. I have yet to find use for these guys because when they are available there are longbows for city defenses and maces/mounted units to build an army with. If i'm going to attack somebody, their cities are going to be full of longbows so the melee bonus does no good. I'd rather have maces and elephants both with a base 8; they can take out about anything of that era, the only real threat being pikes to the elephants but hte maces can take care of those. I just don't see where crossbows fit in.

Never built an ironclad.

Only built chariots for exploring/barb clearing a couple times.
 
Explorers can't pillage
Machine gunners can though, so it's not tied to the ability to attack
 
Thalassicus, are you sure AI doesn't pillage???
My first reload happened, because AI pillaged too much. And in my first modern war I had SAM infantry hunting my country-side for Isabella's marauding choppers.
The first pillaging too much AI was Cyrus.
 
Panth said:
Crossbowmen. I have yet to find use for these guys because when they are available there are longbows for city defenses and maces/mounted units to build an army with. If i'm going to attack somebody, their cities are going to be full of longbows so the melee bonus does no good. I'd rather have maces and elephants both with a base 8; they can take out about anything of that era, the only real threat being pikes to the elephants but hte maces can take care of those. I just don't see where crossbows fit in.

Never built an ironclad.

Only built chariots for exploring/barb clearing a couple times.
Crossbows are good counters to Axemen and Macemen, because the Crossbow gets +50% vs. them but they don't get the +50% bonus vs. the Crossbow because it is an Archery unit.

Never build an ironclad. I agree.

Only build chariots for barb clearing. I agree.
 
I have found a use for most units. Even chariots I've used sparingly as an early quick defense / semi-explorer unit until I can get to horse archers. I actually like machine gunners, and have used them quite well, though certainly not every game. I add variance into most of my games so that I've found good uses for pretty much any unit - except one.

I'd have to agree with several others that I have yet to find a real use for ironclads. Maybe I just haven't stumbled across "that game" yet, but ironclads always seem like a step back for me. I'd much rather just build frigates until I get to the modern age. Ironclads just seem a huge waste of time, even for coastal defense (much less offense).

Perhaps when we get a juicy Civil War scenario we'll finally see a use for ironclads. But for a normal game, I'd list them as the most useless unit I've ever created.
 
Maybe if you were on an island connected with coast to the mainland (ie. England) you could use Ironclads to go and blockade their cities . .

Or something


Or just build destroyers :P
 
magerain said:
Thalassicus, are you sure AI doesn't pillage???
My first reload happened, because AI pillaged too much. And in my first modern war I had SAM infantry hunting my country-side for Isabella's marauding choppers.
The first pillaging too much AI was Cyrus.
It might just be my experience, but the AI doesn't seem to handle pillaging or anti-pillaging too well. I rarely see them send troups out for the sole purpose of mass-pillaging; it's usually part of a force to attack a city, and then if the city is too well defended with bad enough odds they'll switch to pillaging.

I've never seen them, for example, offload 20 gunships around your capital and start pillaging without even trying to attack, or send in 20 cavalry into your territory to try and pillage key resources deep behind your lines. They always try and go for the cities first, which isn't always the best strategy.

Also, they have absolutly no way I saw of detecting if you're pillaging in their territory. I had 8 gunships in one game that pillaged an entire leader's continent after killing their army: as long as I didn't pose a threat to any specific city of theirs, they would never attack, even with lots of resource-guarding SAM infantry right next to my gunships pillaging their towns. Over the course of twenty turns I completely pillaged every square on the continent (one of the small ones on a Standard-sized continents map) without retaliation :undecide:

I've done this on two more games (all on monarch difficulty, so I don't think it's a difficulty level thing), but eventually it just got to be too boring a way to win and I quit using the pillaging tactic.


seasmath said:
Crossbows are good counters to Axemen and Macemen, because the Crossbow gets +50% vs. them but they don't get the +50% bonus vs. the Crossbow because it is an Archery unit.
I agree, if you compare the strength ratings Crossbows are an excellent Maceman counter. They have 9 strength vs a maceman's 8, and have one first strike (equivilant to about a +10% combat boost in that odds range).
 
Ironclads are my least-built unit. Only relied on them in one game, and that was when I had no coal. Even so, it was good enough to trash a bunch of frigates, but I think that it would be better if the ironclads represented the oceangoing 'armored cruiser', which dominated the seas from the 1850s to the turn of the century, instead of the Monitor/Virginia US Civil War - style ironclad which was purely a riverine/littoral ship.

I was forced to draft a lot of defense units in an emergency once when I had chemistry but not rifling, thinking I'd get grenadiers... and I ended up with bunch of musketmen. Fortunately, they were good enough to do the job. but I wasn't happy initially. Still, can't say they didn't work out, and I have now used them extensively.

As for machine guns, depends on where I am in the tech tree and what I'm aiming for as to whether I build them or not. They ARE good at defense.
 
I've had to fight against Machine Gun and let me tell you they were very usefull to the defenders. The odds were always something like 35 versus 20 something or lower (I had Infantry and Cavalry). I had to sacrifice many canons to grab every city. Since it was an achipelago map and my canons were being built on another island, the invasion took much more time than expected as I had to continually transport dozens of canons and later artilleries to my ennemy's islands.

The point is with first strike Machine gun become awesome city defenders First Strike modifier is caculated on top of every other bonuses... So when a gunpowder unit attacks a machine gun, the machine gun (with first strike) doesn't have 27 (18*1.50), but 27*First Strike modifier. If the fight occurs in a city or on a terrain with defensive bonuses, it gets even better... This can send the machine gun's modified strength into the 40s... Not bad when fighting Infantries...

Subs' transportation habilty is nice: a spy in a sub sent on an ennemy's continent to destroy strategic production or ressourses such as space ship parts is a good tactic.
 
Thalassicus: Now I see. That's exactly they way it went: they failed to take a city, and rest of forces spread to pillage. And they did a very bad job evading my Elephants/Sam Infantry.
And I saw AI killing pillagers, but only with it's reinforcements for main army, never with city defenders.
 
Ironclads are my least-built unit. Only relied on them in one game, and that was when I had no coal. Even so, it was good enough to trash a bunch of frigates,

well Ironclad's 12 strength vs frigates 8.8 (coastal defense) your ironclad might actually lose if the frigate gets lucky with first strikes. The frigates can also simply escape to the open sea and strike from there on your galleons and retreat again.
Ironclads are simply too immobile to hunt frigates or galleons but they get sunk by transporters already.

Submarines simply should be immune to battleship attacks, but only be able to do like 10-15 points of damage per fight
 
Jaguar Warriors on maps that you have iron. Just because they actually remove your ability to make a better unit. Other bad units you can just avoid making, but Jags have a negative effect even if you don't make them.
 
Explorers are awesome for wartime parking on hills with forests. Played a multiplayer team game medieval start where I pumped out four explorers and sat them on forested hills near the enemy cities. These things defended even against knight attacks (and on medieval start the first unit you can build is still the archer or axemen when you hook up your metal which can not beat the explorer in the woods near your capital). The best part about these units is that they prevent your enemy from working that tile.
 
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