using modern weapons

[FredLC]

Is it just me, or you guys also think that some modern weapons are plain useless?

From time to time, I manage to become a nuclear superpower, I have nuked enemy capitals, and still, they become angry and don’t give up to demands (WHEN I choose to play as warmonger, mostly, I’m a very pacific contester) .

To actually USE nukes is nonsense, since the terrain gets useless and you make everybody else hates you and you are asking for some serious climate trouble.

I understand that when you are a superpower (at least, when you are the ONLY one), other civilizations should go easy on you, at least due to fear. But that’s not what I experience.

Do you guys think that it’s worth to have nukes? Any use for them?

But they are my smallest concern. Now, I won’t begin another thread on the issues of air fighting, because there are plenty… Let’s face it, bombers should be able to finish any enemy position/unity that is not guarded by fighters. Like in real world, air superiority should be a vital aspect of war, and it just is not so in the game.

But my main point is… Do you people have real use for marines/parachute troopers/helicopters?

I may be totally wrong here… BUT due to the costs in terms of production, maintenance and time of production, it seems to me that you will make a much better deal if you build only modern armors/mech infantries/ artillery tanks (I forgot the name of that unity).

Do you guys have real good use for those unities?

Regards

 

[erix]

IMHO nukes should be used as a last resort. And sometimes you get nuked first (I didn't see but heard in an other thread) so you have to send them as an answer.

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Originally posted by fredlc
But they are my smallest concern. Now, I won’t begin another thread on the issues of air fighting, because there are plenty… Let’s face it, bombers should be able to finish any enemy position/unity that is not guarded by fighters. Like in real world, air superiority should be a vital aspect of war, and it just is not so in the game.

I've gone back and forth in my mind on this, and I think that air power is about right.

In the modern era, I have not seen an example of airpower completely destroying a military ground unit. I have seen numerous examples (from the Gulf War, Chechneya, and Afghanistan) of air power crippling ground units, but in all cases, it still required ground forces themselves to finish the job.

I think bombing a unit down to one hit point but not killing it is actually pretty accurate then.

As for nukes, I just have them on hand for deterrence. I never build the Manhattan Project myself. Disgusting waste of shields that I would rather let the AI do, especially if I get a tech lead and can gain control of the majority of uranium before they figure out what is going on.

 

[nivek9991]

I agree with Bill_in_PDX.
I let the AI build the Manhattan Project, mainly so that it takes the AI longer to get nukes. Course I've never had the AI launch a nuke on me, but if I were to build the MP earlier then they would have had it, it would give them more time to start building nukes.
I avoid nukes at all costs. Of course I am also playing my first game on Regent this week, so we'll see what happens
I may change my opinion after this game, haha.

 

[FredLC]

But that about mariners / parachute troopers and helicopters?

Any use for them?

 

[korusus]

I've found that nukes are good for one of the following circumstances:

1) If you know the position of enemy troops and there is a large congregation of them in a limited area Nuke'em (though this doesn't do much damage).

2) If you know where a civ is getting a really neccessary resource than nuke that area (it won't try to get back to it for a while)

An example of number 2 would be in my last game, the civ I was at war with was shooting out marines almost every other turn. I knew where his one and only rubber resource was so I decided to nuke the area. From then it was producing cavalry and infantry only.

It's almost totally useless to nuke a city because unlike real life it won't demoralize the civ into surrender.

 

[muppet]

Originally posted by fredlc
From time to time, I manage to become a nuclear superpower, I have nuked enemy capitals, and still, they become angry and don’t give up to demands (WHEN I choose to play as warmonger, mostly, I’m a very pacific contester) .

I might be angry too if an AI nuked my cities.

To actually USE nukes is nonsense, since the terrain gets useless and you make everybody else hates you and you are asking for some serious climate trouble.

And they say the game has no realism....

I understand that when you are a superpower (at least, when you are the ONLY one), other civilizations should go easy on you, at least due to fear. But that’s not what I experience.

They become more 'respectful' when you actually have a significant arsenal at your disposal. They become less 'respectful' when they are about to lose the game. Kinda makes sense, eh?

Do you guys think that it’s worth to have nukes? Any use for them?

Deterrent more than actual use. I'd hate to be caught without in a war, though I hate using them.

But my main point is… Do you people have real use for marines/parachute troopers/helicopters?

Hmmm... Marines required for 1-tile island cities. Send in LOTS of bombers first though.

Parachute troops. Have never used one to date.

Helicopters. Have never used one to date. *But* my imagination tells me that they can be very useful: Build in productive city that has nothing to do then 're-base' to furthest corrupt city that is not connected by rail. Follow with 'disband'. I think it may be the fastest way to get shields to an otherwise useless city.

I may be totally wrong here… BUT due to the costs in terms of production, maintenance and time of production, it seems to me that you will make a much better deal if you build only modern armors/mech infantries/ artillery tanks (I forgot the name of that unity).

For simplicty sake. Yes. For combat sake. Yes. My perception is most players have a disproportionate number of tank type units over everything else. Yes. There is a noticeable shortage of variety or 'operation specific' capability in modern units.

 

[PaulNAdhe]

Originally posted by fredlc
But that about mariners / parachute troopers and helicopters?

Any use for them?

I used to build Marines. I don't anymore, they're just about useless for taking a city by the time they're available. I usually just land a group of Modern Armor next to the city and begin pummeling it's defenders to jelly.

I built Paratroops once, but they as impotent as the Marines and you can't launch more than 1 from a city per turn, so you have to spread them all around to have a combined force.

I've never built a Helicopter. Useless.

 

[Bamspeedy]

In my last game, even the AI didn't want helicoptors and paratroopers. All of us had researched all but the last 3-4 techs in the modern age, and still no one had research advanced flight. But there were only 2 AI civs left, I suppose if more had been around at least one of them would have made an effort to get it.

 

[X_Dagger_X]

I use nukes, rarely, and only because (1) i get nuked, which makes me very angry, (2) because it can allow you to take the capitol of another nation in a single turn that is close to your border (cuz they stock it w/ 6 0r 7 mechinfantry and 3or 4 radar artillery, + the bonus they get for defending capitol, +the bonus for metro.) and a nuke will take out 4 or so mechs and leave the rest to armor.
I aslo use nukes if i am ticked and want to hasten nuclear fallout all over the globe to create a world like is in C&C Tiberian Sun.

Explain this: gracious, MPP (mutual protection pact), ROP (right of passage), friends for the past 3,000 years. one nuke on a foriegn bully and suddenly at war with everyone in the world.

 

[GI Josh]

Marines - as noted elsewhere, vastly underpowered, both offensively and defensively. One and only one worthwhile use - opening turn of attack. Use waves and waves of bombers and naval gunfire to lower defenders to 1 hp - at that point use marines to take the city, then bring in transports with infantry and armor. Thus you can now use that infantry and armor (and arty) the same turn. With enough resources, you can take several cities in one turn. It takes a massive amount of units, though. Because railroads allow instant reinforcement in a single turn, using marines to take out a city in the first turn, rather than have to land troops and attack the second turn, can be worthwhile, especially where the coastal city is strategically important, either in turns of geography or wonders.

Helicopters - useful in limited circumstances where ai does not have significant amounts of fighers. You can place infantry relatively deep to block use of strategic resources (usually better to bomb the roads instead but there may be lack of bombers or other unusual circumstances). You can also place infantry deep onto mountaintops or other favorable terrain to block use of roads or block use of the terrain by ai as you advance. In MP games helicopters, particularly if there range is extended, will have more utility as human players make better use of terrain and denying the terrain will therefore make a larger difference.

Paratroopers - same uses as heli, but their terrible stats make them much less worthwhile. The limited range is also ridiculous. Either longer range or ability to use from aircraft carriers, as well as better def stats are necessary. Less resources than heli.

IMHO, paratroopers and heli are not worthwhile now but will become more important in MP. There have been threads about reducing the "RR every square" tendency (e.g. through making RR an exclusive improvement, forcing choice between mine, irrigation, and RR). In such a case, paratroopers and heli infantry would become critical niche units used (as in real life) to block transportation bottlenecks, e.g. critical bridges.

 

[Evincar]

Well, one by one here's what I think:

Marines: Useless. By the time you get them MI is available, and attack 8 vs Def 18+bonus is not a good idea

Paratroopers: never used them but may have an use, dropping in mountains, since they have ZoC, and can pillage. Anyway they don't seem to be very good IMHO.

Helicopters: No idea what to do with them. seem a waste for me, but droppingo infantry could be of some use.

Nukes: WHO SAID THEY ARE USELESS??? there's NOTHING better than nuking a 140 MI stack and kill half of them and knock the rest to 2 HP...!!!

I'n thinking about modding Marines up to 11/6/1 and paratroopers same as infantry, 6/10/1, but I don't think if they'll work that way.

Spain will win tomorrow!!!! or maybe not....

 

[warpstorm]

I generally lay the nukes down liberarally. I try to have one for each city and a few for pesky unit clusters. Screw global warming. The polution will go away when my workers clean it up.

I find that nukes don't make guys who are at war with the nukee mad. They really don't mind.



Evincer, I find that the AI deals fairly well with modded units. In the cases you listed the game will work fine. I modded paratroopers to have "All terrain as roads" and bumped the cost up a little bit. They are great pillagers. Unfortunately, the computer knew what to do with them, too.