UU Navy Seal .... who comes up with this stuff?

[CVDon]

No unit sizes are given in Civ so I selected some from history as appropriate.

PreClassical = Warband
Classical = Legion
Middle Ages = Battle (where our term battalion comes from)
Rennaisance = Regiment
Industrial = Brigade (Rifle Brigade, Iron Brigade, Light Brigade, it just fits.)
Modern = Division

But where in heck does a ten man Seal Team fit? Who came up with this as a Unique Unit? The United States does have a unique unit that should be included and Navy Seal is not it.

(drum roll please)

National Guard. Yep, National Guard. Most nations have some kind of reserve force, but how many nations have entire divisions of weekend warriors?

UU National Guard: Replaces Infantry. Strength 18, vice 20. Half as many hammers to build. Half maintenance cost. They don't fight as well but you can build twice as many of them.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

Nah, the US should have had the US Marines Corps or the ability to draft twice as many men a turn for half the penalty - to represent that America historically didn't have much of an army till War broke out be it Civil, WW1 or WW2 and drafted a vast one. Alternatively a super cool chopper

Where they get it from? The same place they got Praetorians Vs Legions, horseriding immortals, Keshiks in the ancient era...my God!

 

[budweiser]

On the plus side, they look pretty cool.

But they replace marines? That's a bit early. I guess the Navy had frogmen in WWII and I know we had navy seals fighting in vietnam but they feel a whole more modern that a WWII era unit.

It's just not a good fit because the US still has Rangers, Special Forces, Marine Recon, Delta Force, etc that are all 'elite' formations that basically do the same thing. Talk about redundancy, each branch of our military has to have it's own special unit.

 

[CVDon]

Most countries that have salt water coastline have/had Marines KofC, by one name or another. Japan had the Special Naval Landing Force, Russia had Naval Infantry, that kind of thing. US Marines may have perfected it, but they are not unique.

We (The US) never do go to war ready for it. We usually hide behind our allies and build an overwhelming force (tip of my hat to the Brits/French) then storm forth en-mass.

This could be done with the National Guard UU. At half hammer cost you could put one or two in each city and quickly produce a lot more if you were attacked.

 

[silver_blue]

National Guard. Yep, National Guard. Most nations have some kind of reserve force, but how many nations have entire divisions of weekend warriors?

British Territorial Army is similar I suppose. But the National Guard is an interesting option - considering that it predates the birth of the nation itself, it's a huge part of US military history.

Navy Seals isn't really appropriate - may as well give the UK the SAS in that case as they are arguably more well known. I'd go for the B-52 bomber - probably the most visible sign of US military power since it became the world's superpower in the 1950s. Supposed to be in service until the middle of this century, and can't imagine there are many industrial era military technologies that keep serving for close on a century!

 

[MosquitoE]

In CivIII the US special unit was the F16. The problem was it came very late, often the game was won or lost before it came up. Plus it wasn't that much better than other planes.
I think the game designers tried to balance a lot of different issues besides what the most accurate UU might be for a particular culture. Considerations of game balance, timing, cost, etc are IMO more important than trying to be historically accurate.

 

[joelzhl]

I think a carrier unique unit would be better, and here's why. Post WWII, when a new conflict comes up, the first thing Americans ask is "Where are the carriers?" Nuclear carrier fleets basically become the defining military unit for super power America. Even though it might not have been the most notable unit throughout it's history, but carrier is the most important one during it's "golden age". Since most UU in CIV represent the dominant unit during a civilization's "golden age", I think it's appropriate that a carrier unit should be America's UU.

 

[daengle]

National Guard. Yep, National Guard. Most nations have some kind of reserve force, but how many nations have entire divisions of weekend warriors?

UU National Guard: Replaces Infantry. Strength 18, vice 20. Half as many hammers to build. Half maintenance cost. They don't fight as well but you can build twice as many of them.

Wow! It's been years since the last time I met someone else who realized that the Guard was the real backbone of the US military. I'm impressed.

This a great idea, however, I do take some exception to the idea that the Guard should fight with a lower base strength than RA units. The notion that the Guard is somehow second rate is nonsense the West Pointers have been spreading for years. Don't believe it.

 

[CVDon]

Sorry daengle, but facts are facts. I mentioned C/1/111 FA, VaNG. I was the Commander of that Battery, so I know the National Guard inside and out. We were not as good as the active duty guys, but it would not be reasonable to expect us to be. They train five days a week, we train two days a month. How could we possibly be as good?

But that's not the point. National Guard is MUCH cheaper. We pay more in taxes from our Civilian jobs than we cost the government in pay, training cost, and retirement. Aside from equipment cost, the Guard is almost FREE troops.

So, the NG is not as good (hmmmmm NG ... Not as Good ... funny) but you can afford more National Guard and they stand up quickly. Add a 10% promotion for experience and 18 becomes 19.8. Almost as good.

 

[troytheface]

Both the national guard and the regular army kinda sux in comparison to a drafted army. Some famous writer - (can't remember the name- tolkville or something- ) stated that democratic nations armies bite in the beginning of a war - but gain strength when the army starts drafting from the general population. (Whereas a non democratic army starts strong - and gets weaker as its vets get wiped out. (germany- japan)
Lets face it...the best and the brightest (exceptions always) are going to go to college and become lawyers or something-

At a certain level - if someone said - yes - go in that direction where all the bullets are flying at ya while me and the desicion makers formulate back here.... doubtfull most would be eager to follow that directive-

(now a warrior type guy would'nt have a problem and there are those types about- but most i think would say- no way)... (unless your like 18 or had to...)

used to be riff raff was often given the choice of going to the army or going to jail (think thats changed a bit but i have noticed that the test requirements for the military are now lower.....)
National guardsmen and their wives are bitter -where i am - at having to go to war- personally i am a little put off- i mean- look- u signed up -many want the benefits without paying the price...kinda like that mother that was going nuts when her son got killed- i mean he was an adult - he made his choice
and now ol momma wants to moan about it- maybe she should have raised him to be a flower arranger if she was really worried about it...

Seals are ok as a UU. Everyone hated the f-15. I'd vote for a drafted GI UU. No unhappiness for drafting -Promotes faster than normal or something.

 

[Seven05]

There could be several American UU's that would be appropriate. Minutemen would be a good one considering it was their efforts that made America more than a colony, it would also be nice to have a counter to the British Redcoats. Likewise the Sherman tank is another good example, it was far from being the best tank in WWII but so many of them were produced that the superior German Panzers were simply overwhelmed. Although fitting, a naval or air unit would just be a waste, imagine playing a game on a "Great Plains" map and not getting a UU because your civ had a naval UU?

I don't think you need to use a "golden age" as a guideline and I'm sure you could find more than a few german players who would not consider the Panzer to be something from their country's "Golden Age."

I don't really see the late era UU as a disadvantage though, it's really no more of a disadvantage than a War Chariot that is outdated by horse archers or a Quecha that is outdated by everything but a warrior. I think the best "all purpose" UU's are those that fall in the mid-game since those tend to be the units that are used when you're bringing a short game to an end or solidifying your position for the late game. In that sense the Amrican UU is one of the best since it is never obsolete (although it is certainly not the most powerful unit in the time period).

 

[History_Buff]

I always feel good inside when this comes up The SEALs are a rediculous choice of UU. The National Guard is a good one, but a most democratic countries have a reserve like the Guard.

Personally I would much rather have seen the Americans with a late game Air unit; The F-16 is one of the best planes in the world, and could have been better if people had let John Boyd have his way. The alternative to the -16 was the XF-17, a two engine version which now serves as the F-18 IIRC, another excellent plane. Or it could be the F-86 Sabre, which was proven to be far better than its opponents over the skies of Korea. Maybe even a P-51 or B-52, or perhaps one of the new Stealth aircraft.

A strengthened Carrier would also be nice to see, because it's tough to deny that the US can project more power overseas than any other nation today, and is likely rivaled only by Britain through all history.

 

[daengle]

I mentioned C/1/111 FA, VaNG. I was the Commander of that Battery, so I know the National Guard inside and out. We were not as good as the active duty guys, but it would not be reasonable to expect us to be. They train five days a week, we train two days a month. How could we possibly be as good?

But that's not the point. National Guard is MUCH cheaper. We pay more in taxes from our Civilian jobs than we cost the government in pay, training cost, and retirement. Aside from equipment cost, the Guard is almost FREE troops.

I was only FDC section chief of C/4/17th FA USAR in North Carolina, so I guess you outranked me

Of course the regular army spends more days per year in training. And, they've all been to basic more recently, too. But the guard and reserves have many unique strengths that tend to get ignored.

Average unit retention times are measured in months in the RA and in years in the reserves, so total man-hours of training experience tends to be higher in reserve units. Interestingly, total man-hours of actual combat experience tends to be higher too, at least during peace time. And, IMHAO, the longer retention times means better unit cohesion. Hard to quantify, but historically very important.

Education levels are higher in the reserves. The percentages of troops with high school diplomas and college degrees tends to be higher. (Average IQ tends to be higher too.)

Another great strength of the reserves is the fact that many reservists have civilian jobs that are essentially identical to their military jobs. Army reserve cooks, mechanics, truck drivers, and military police, etc., tend to be cooks, mechanics, truck drivers and police in their day jobs. For many vital non-combat functions the reservists have vastly more experience than their regular army counter parts.

And, as you pointed out, all of this is for a fraction of the price of the regular army.

NG and USAR units have this weird inferiority complex around active duty units. They do better on the PT tests because they're all in their early twenties. BFD. Our howitzers and their howitzers shoot the same shells.

( Lastly, although I am strong supporter of the reserve/NG system, and believe everything I've said, you do realize I was trying to make a joke don't you?)

 

[troytheface]

F-86 Sabre better than the Mig? Doubtful.
Alot of the kill ratios and speculation on what was better seem to be based on nationalistic propoganda. Mig pilots claimed a 8 to one kill ratio or something like that and the americans claim like a 16 to one ratio.....
The Mig was faster (climb rate), more manueverable and had better weapondry - and the russian pilots interviewed (history channel) state that it was superior
- one said he almost felt sorry for a group of sabres he swooped down upon.
Same with the F-15. One Mig pilot (mig 29? -whatever the counter to the f-15 was at the time) who flew both - claimed that the Mig was superior-
Russian equipment always looked pretty bad-ass to me- T-34 or Sherman anyone?

 

[lord_graywolfe]

i dont mind the SeAL UU to much, better than the F-15 from civ III. i was hoping though that this time they would give us a naval unit like the Constitution class frigate from our colonal days.

 

[*Nosferatu*]

Why not reskin the Navy seals and call them Ranger?

 

[troytheface]

the SAS has a bigger history as a special forces unit and all these other american units ..Seals - Rangers - Green Beret ect are derivitive.
Isreal, England , probably others- have units that are undoubtably equal to if not better than their american counter parts.
Maybe they should have a bit more fun with UU's and pick ones that really look different than the rest of the worlds. Someone said Civ1 had alpine fighters with skis. (sounds cool- guess ya need a finnish civ for that )
How about a cowboy-like calvary unit. America is famous for cowboys.- but,
once again, really have no problem with SEALS.
National Guard info was enlightening by the way- go Guard! Blows up our buildings wills ya? Well we will just take a couple of countries in compensation.

 

[Ranos]

All of the Civ games, current version included, have failed to capture the importance of naval units. Civ 4 does the best out of them because of the need to attack and defend water based resources, but it still falls short. Why build a dozen Battleships when you can build a dozen Artillery for a lot cheaper?

Air units, as they have been in history, are nothing more than support units for gound based units. Civ 3 and 4 handled this area perfectly.

Due to those facts, sea and air UUs are just big wastes. They wouldn't get heavily used because of their roles which would result in other civs getting picked more often because of their more useful UUs. Look at England and America in Civ 3.

As far as unit composition throughout history, as armies have grown bigger, bigger names have been needed. Within those bigger armies are smaller units. I'm no military expert but if you asked a soldier what unit he/she is with, you would get a list starting, IIRC, with the squad and working up to division or higher. A Modern Armor in Civ 4 doesn't necessarily represent a Division. It could be a Brigade, Regiment, Platoon, or whatever the unit name/size is.

While a Navy Seal team is made up of a platoon or company or squad or whatever, that doesn't take away from its combat effectiveness. I do realize that a Navy Seal unit couldn't take and hold a city like Marine unit could.

Most countries that have salt water coastline have/had Marines KofC, by one name or another. Japan had the Special Naval Landing Force, Russia had Naval Infantry, that kind of thing. US Marines may have perfected it, but they are not unique.

Most countries also had foot soldiers that carried swords, hence the swordsman, so every country had its own version of that unit. Therefore, Praetorians shouldn't be a UU (or the Legion if you want to get technical). Every country had its own version of a Rifleman so the Redcoats shouldn't be a UU.

The point of a UU is a unit that filled a certain role in a country, similar to what other countries had, but it was superior or special in some way. Most of the units that are represented in the game by the UU were the units used by that civ to gain its superiority or help maintain its superiority.

The problem with finding a good unit for the US that fits this is that the majority of the units that helped the US in its superiority were air units. The B-52, F-15, F117, etc. What unit could they use that really helped? The Minuteman would be a good replacement for the Rifleman but they were used to win our freedom. It was another 130 years before the US could truly be said to have gained its superiority. We had tanks in WWII that helped but the devs seem to want a unit that everybody would look at and say, "Oooooh look at Americas UU."

They went with a unit that is known throughout the world as the elite of the elite. While you can argue that many other countries have highly trained elite units, the US has one of the best.

 

[Point]

I agree the SEAL is a stupid UU, they arent even the top rated special forces. Something more fitting of America's shock and awe would be better, a unique ship/aircraft

 

[Ogrelord]

what about modern armour or mechanized infantry?
Don't the US has a strong war machine that could fit in one of the unit?