v3.0.3 Discussion

[Tomice]

Though I fear that additional gold on villages might be too strong / clash with the trade system. That one is already in question with the earlier villages in GEM.

In GEM, we had not only the extra gold on riverside villages that was the equivalent of the extra food farms got, but even one more for the tile being riverside IIRC (haven't played GEM for a while). ANY improved tile got 1 extra gold riverside!

So we still have less gold available than in GEM.
And don't forget: We lose the extra food we'd get from riverside farms instead, so it's no increase in overall yields compared to vanilla BNW, just more flexibility (took me a while to understand this, i have to admit, so forget my earlier posts).

 

[Ahriman]

In GEM, we had not only the extra gold on riverside villages that was the equivalent of the extra food farms got, but even one more for the tile being riverside IIRC (haven't played GEM for a while). ANY improved tile got 1 extra gold riverside!

So we still have less gold available than in GEM.

But we didn't have international trade routes in GEM. Thats why BNW has much less tile gold (riverside, coast).

And don't forget: We lose the extra food we'd get from riverside farms instead, so it's no increase in overall yields

Right.

 

[Tomice]

@Ahriman: I meant that the solution in CEP 3.04 is a good one, if that wasn't clear.

The loss of the gold ANY riverside tile got in combination with less coastal gold compensates well for the addition of TR's.
The extra gold on riverside trading posts is just an exchange (for the potential extra riverside food from farms) and therefore balance-neutral - it only adds variety.



EDIT: On a side note: I'm not overly happy with slower movement on isles. I don't think it adds much to the game apart from nuisance. I do like the combat bonus, but it could be more than 10% i think.

 

[Zaldron]

Here are my thoughts:

1) The "it ain't broke don't fix it" argument. I am going to always use this one as long as our primary goal in this mod is mostly about improving the game, and not just remaking the game into a different experience.

So to me the burden of proof has to be on justifying the change from the base game.

2) The strategic element of the promotion. Your opinion has been that there is no strategic decision making in using the restore health promotion, where i see just the opposite.

I find early game promotions very boring. Open Terrain vs Rough Terrain....and frankly rough is usually better. Even the tier 2 promotions aren't that exciting, its really at tier 3 that things start to get interesting.

But i have found myself aching over using the health restore in early game battles.

It is absolutely true that sometimes its a non-decision. If I have no problems running, I will. If I have absolutely no chance to win, I'll heal. but there are many cases in between, and that is where the fun decision making for me comes in. Short Term benefits vs long term gain....a key component of civ.

Further i find the strategic decision gets more exciting later game with more veteran units. If i have a tier 4 unit that suddenly gets tier 5 promotions, I REALLY want those promotions. But if the unit is badly wounded and might die without healing....do a sacrifice a precious tier 4 unit to get that tier 5?

3) The "real world" reason for the instant heal. There is one real world scenario the healing can represent. We all know the classic war tale. A unit is beaten down, nearly finished off. The men rally, form up, and strike back at the enemy with a renewed vigor and defeat or severely wound their superior adversaries.

To me the insta heal represents this in many ways. Its lets a unit go from "so weak its useless" to "strong enough to do some damage or maybe even win". Its abstract, but what isn't in a civ game?

I fall fully into the "remove the insta-heal as fast as possible" camp, so let me add some personal opinions here.

1) My first argument is that in fact this promotion is totally broken. The AI uses it extremely ineffectively compared to the human *and* it's almost always a no-brainer for the human. If you're in a war, you attack and use the insta-heal. If you're not in a full-fledged war, you use a real promotion.

2) We just have to agree to disagree here. I'll argue there's almost never a real decision making tension here. Circumstances will always dictate which you use.2b) Your t4 vs t5 example seems a little bit of a stretch. The chances are you already made that decision long ago by deciding to heal instead of taking level 2 for example.

I don't really have anything to comment on (3) other than gameplay >>>> realism