Valve/Steam on Data-Mining, DRM, and Non-Ownership

[tom2050]

A compiled short list of quotations and links that explain it all. Just a heads up to Non-Steam and Steam users.

2K's past is full of Ubisoft type DRM schemes, and this is where they (Valve) are heading in relation to the DRM / Data-Mining aspect; if not there in some form now.

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DRM, better known as copy protection, is hampering game companies’ ability to simply compete with another provider of games: pirates. From Newell’s point of view, pirates simply economically provide a better service than a traditional games company by getting content to customers more quickly, with less hassle, and without regional delays. The solution, Newell claims, isn’t to fight them, but to out-compete them.

Of course, Steam is equipped for that fight. By using the service’s strengths such as extensive data-mining capabilities, the company can be given a competitive advantage.

-No DRM should be offered that can be thought of as DRM: Newell believes that digital rights management software that is presented as copy-protection gives a game a stink. ... "There is evidence anecdotally that DRM is increasing piracy rather than decreasing piracy." ... An outfit like Valve, however, can get provide even better service, even by doing something as intrusive as data-mining their customers' computers ...

Two things I learned from talking to Valve at PAX were: 1) this is not a risky company. It's a laterally structured company, but it relies heavily on market research and data mining.

There is more to the game than a comprehensive tutorial, there’s also a sharp story, and perhaps more significantly, a robust content delivery and data-mining platform that Valve uses to update and monitor the usage of their products...

President of Valve Software Gabe Newell has said that he thinks the DRM on computer games is "just dumb".
...the future of PC games might not just be DRM-less, it might be entirely disc-less.

Is this possible? Gabe Newell thinks DRM is "just dumb", yet Steam is Internet-Requirement and Beyond DRM...

Steam is also still evolving. ... First is driver auto-updating. The second is Steam being able to check your system to work out whether you’re going to be able to play a particular game.

Steam will update your DRIVERS for you? I don't think many will want a 3rd party DRM program auto-updating their computer drivers.

Valve has totally understood this philosophy and are mining meaningful data on their player demographic, an approach which will certainly be copied by many companies soon as they become aware of the benefits.

It will be great once all companies start Data Mining our computers!

Steam and the way towards Purchase=Rental of software
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First of all, no EULA is above the law. Music and software publishers may have managed to muddle the waters on intellectual rights so let me use a clear example: books. Paying a fair price for a book does not give the intellectual rights to the...contents but it does make the copy I bought mine. I can resell it, gift it to a library, lent it to a friend, keep it forever or burn it. It is mine because I paid for it.
Now, try doing any of the above with a STEAMed game. Why is it not possible?

STEAM (and any other form of DRM that limits the number of activations and/or prevent the legal transfer of ownership of any one of our items) effectively steals back the ownership of the items we paid fair prices for and ALLOWS us to use them only for as long as they deem convenient or profitable or possible (whichever comes first).

And any agreement under duress is null and void to begin with - even more so when it is vague and unclear. The EULA is only available AFTER one opens the box and, thus, rendering the product worthless. In other words, agreement to the EULA is only reached under the threat of financial loss, that is, making the game you just bought worthless. If you do not agree with the EULA you can neither get a refund nor use the product you bought as intended.
Moreover, nowhere in the EULA (or the product description) does it state that "paying for this physical or digital product only gives you rental rights in return". No, for the price that games used to SELL now such DRM schemes want us to RENT our games.

So, J.KESTNER, nothing is free. Games autopatched and there were gaming communities long before STEAM. SteamWorks may be convenient in some ways but try not to take your eyes off the ball: they are selling you steam instead of a product that is your to keep.

So what they did was scale back on any intrusive, draconian and (possibly) illegal forms of DRM. All except 2K GAMES and some former soviet game developers that is. Protecting one's investment and labor is only fair. Insulting your customers and stealing back the product you just sold to them in not.

2K GAMES crack-opened the door of ... DRM schemes (with its custom-made SecuROM 7.+ coupled with Limited Installations which were enforced by an irremovable RootKit), only to be followed by EA, then UBISOFT and finally ROCKSTAR. Even after the customers' backlash over the SPORE fiasco that was heard around the world, the people in charge seem less competent every day. And that is no small feat: they were already considered totally incompetent to begin with.

Yes... our beloved 2K Games. We even have some of them among us. Welcome!

Blizzard to data mine World of Warcraft players

"Non-personal system specifications" are what's being mined, something like with Valve's digital distribution service Steam. Like that outfit, there will be no "opt-in."

Steam subscriber agreement controversy

Some time after adding it [ "Add non-Steam game" option" ], he received an e-mail from Valve stating that his copy of that game was illegal (an actual source was also mentioned, but my friends claims to have never seen that website anyway), and his account was suspended.

So what permission does Steam, and so Valve, have to tamper with executables of programs that aren't even a part of their own programme? Even more so that it was legal after all.
Secondly, there is no information about that anywhere. The Subscriber Agreement doesn't list any monitoring activities of Steam; actually, quite the opposite...
... additional layer of DRM is not mentioned anywhere.

If you were, for example, to create an artistic version of the Steam logo and add a link to it on Steam's client, they would have sufficient data to suspend your account as well.

""" Valve can and will close your Steam Account if they believe other NON-STEAM software on your computer are illegal (even if they are not) """

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[deanej]

Steam will update your DRIVERS for you? I don't think many will want a 3rd party DRM program auto-updating their computer drivers.

I always suspected that steam was just as intrusive as SecuROM. Seems I was right.

 

[BobDole]

I really can't wait till E3 so there can be some discussion about something other than Steam...

For me, I find Valve to be one of the few "good" developers out there. They always release quality games, they provide great post-launch support, and I've never had a problem with Steam. They're like the anti-Activision/Ubisoft in a way. If you really want to be paranoid about Valve stealing your data, then OK...there's no convincing some people...

 

[Tylerryan79]

I think steam can be abused very easy, and with no oversite it eventually will be, if it isnt already. To call someone paranoid because they dont want to give a company a window into there lives is beyond me. I like my privacy and information kept private, no matter how useless it seems to some, it isnt to these kinds of companies.

 

[Senethro]

Oh, tommy-tommy tomtom. You've gone and googled up a bunch of articles using a phrase that scares you and expect the rest of us to lose our heads over it as well.

BOO! DATA MINING!

What does data mining mean to you? Stealing your precious documents and all those porn links in your Bookmarks? Its actually just how many games you own, how long you've played them for, which get completed and which ignored, and the Steam hardware survey.

A compiled short list of quotations and links that explain it all. Just a heads up to Non-Steam and Steam users.

You're particularly bad for taking single sentences out of context. Heres one.

Originally Posted by http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2009...ery-different-gaming-world-gabe-newell-wants/
-No DRM should be offered that can be thought of as DRM: Newell believes that digital rights management software that is presented as copy-protection gives a game a stink. ... "There is evidence anecdotally that DRM is increasing piracy rather than decreasing piracy." ... An outfit like Valve, however, can get provide even better service, even by doing something as intrusive as data-mining their customers' computers ...

Or, more fully:
"An outfit like Valve, however, can get provide even better service, even by doing something as intrusive as data-mining their customers' computers -- as long as they are transparent about it and can prove to the customer that taking such measures will make the customers' games better."

Oh, look, the full quote is less scary now that you haven't cut it off halfway through. They're referring to Steam's hardware survey that is opt-in and lets Valve develop games with the specs of their customers computers in mind.

Why is that use of data mining bad?

http://www.gamingexcellence.com/features/56.shtml?print=1

This was a terrible article. Apart from that, the quote you've extracted was just referring to how they used market research to decide on the cast of Valve's Left 4 Dead game. (3 white, 1 black, 3 males, 1 female). Boring and cynically corporate, but effective.

http://www.wikinomics.com/blog/inde...roactive-continuity-all-enabled-by-platforms/

full quote:
"There is more to the game than a comprehensive tutorial, there’s also a sharp story, and perhaps more significantly, a robust content delivery and data-mining platform that Valve uses to update and monitor the usage of their products. Valve’s content distribution platform, Steam, allows the company to apply bug-fixes and updates to games, as well as learn about how users go about playing through the games, including but not limited to the furthest level of completion, and whereabouts in the game players are most likely to meet their end.

While the ability to glean insights about how their customers use their products must be invaluable as feedback data for making better and more engaging games, it is the ability to update content seamlessly on users’ computers that was a move to watch this past week."

Valve still not using data mining to steal your fielz, just to observe how people play their games. Evil or what?

2K's past is full of Ubisoft type DRM schemes, and this is where they (Valve) are heading in relation to the DRM / Data-Mining aspect; if not there in some form now.


Is this possible? Gabe Newell thinks DRM is "just dumb", yet Steam is Internet-Requirement and Beyond DRM...

You did read your own articles, right? Gabe talked about how he wanted to offer a better service than the pirates. He thinks DRM that doesn't do that is just dumb. Whats difficult to understand?

Steam subscriber agreement controversy


""" Valve can and will close your Steam Account if they believe other NON-STEAM software on your computer are illegal (even if they are not) """

The source is bad. Its a guys friend who may or may not be entirely legal. Valve's policy of not discussing these things in the open for any reason also adds some mystery. Could be a cause for concern or just yet another pirate/hacker bitter at getting caught and lying about it.

I always suspected that steam was just as intrusive as SecuROM. Seems I was right.

You didn't even bother to read the articles, did you? Its a future plan and I'm sure it'll also be optional because its the sort of thing I'd turn off.

This post is getting ugly with the quotes and tags everywhere and you're just scaremongering with cherrypicked quotes from innocuous statements or unverifiable sources. I'm done.

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[evrett37]

Oh look, paranoia.

I'll edit in an actual post later because the chicken just started boiling.

You've stated your opinion 1000 times Seth..if you dont have anything new to add stop trolling and go somewhere else.

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[tom2050]

No Paranoia, these words are from articles and Valve themselves. Steam is a push towards making it so that when you buy a game, you own absolutely nothing, not even the right to play it.

In other words, purchasing software is actually renting the title to play as long as the company says you can. This is almost how it is done now; Valve can shut your account down for many reasons (They do not do this, but it is within their power to do so).

Valve themselves have said this platform has extensive data-mining capabilities; and giving consumers an opt-in will eventually fade away (as Blizzard did some time ago). It's not a matter of IF, it's a matter of when (if not being done right now).

With Steam, they are watching everything you do, literally. Steam closed a Steam-users account because it checked a Non-Steam executable file on his computer and determined it was illegal (which it was not, and until that users account was reopened MUCH later, the user could not play his purchased games).

You would be angry if: Steam checked a completely unrelated EXE file on your computer, thought it was illegal (when it was not), and locked you out of playing any Steam games until you could prove otherwise (guilty until proven innocent). <-- This happens now.

 

[Senethro]

You've stated your opinion 1000 times Seth..if you dont have anything new to add stop trolling and go somewhere else.

And you guys have already said you're not buying the game based on an integral component of it. So why do you keep coming back to a site about the game you're not going to buy?

If you're doing some kind of consumer protest then go to the 2K forums (i.e. the publisher, the guys who actually made this call) and not spam up a board about Civilization.


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[BobDole]

No Paranoia, these words are from articles and Valve themselves. Steam is a push towards making it so that when you buy a game, you own absolutely nothing, not even the right to play it.

In other words, purchasing software is actually renting the title to play as long as the company says you can. This is almost how it is done now; Valve can shut your account down for many reasons (They do not do this, but it is within their power to do so).

Valve themselves have said this platform has extensive data-mining capabilities; and giving consumers an opt-in will eventually fade away (as Blizzard did some time ago). It's not a matter of IF, it's a matter of when (if not being done right now).

With Steam, they are watching everything you do, literally. Steam closed a Steam-users account because it checked a Non-Steam executable file on his computer and determined it was illegal (which it was not, and until that users account was reopened MUCH later, the user could not play his purchased games).

You would be angry if: Steam checked a completely unrelated EXE file on your computer, thought it was illegal (when it was not), and locked you out of playing any Steam games until you could prove otherwise (guilty until proven innocent). <-- This happens now.

1) I'm not too worried about Steam shutting down my account ever, and I haven't heard any catastrophic stories about this happening.

2) How come you need to post stuff related to this topic in seemingly every thread, even ones not directly related to Steam?

 

[Senethro]

This is what Steam's data mining does.

http://www.steampowered.com/status/tf2/death_maps/cp_granary_deaths.jpg

Look at that. Its a nice picture of a multiplayer FPS Capture Point map from above. Its based on data collected from many servers. The colours show where deaths occur. There are 5 Capture Points which the Red and Blu teams must capture in sequence. You can easily see the location of the 3 middle points as the red dots. Players often die in these locations as they are trying to capture the point. Its also evident that a significant amount of fighting goes on in the corridors around the central point as the green pervading that area shows.

Thats it. Steam data mining tells Valve when/if the Red team is winning too much. Thats a good thing.

 

[tom2050]

and not spam up a board about Civilization.

Civilization IS Steam DRM. They are one and the same. This board, therefore, is perfectly appropriate. 2K members are here also... so going to 2K forums makes no sense.

With Civilization, you get everything Quoted in post #1 and more. If companies see no one talking about it, they will think they found the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and will do nothing but make Steam DRM worse. Steam's usability/functionality is good, Senethro, no one is arguing that.

Extensive Data-Mining Platform, Steam checking of other software executables on your computer system to determine legality, locking your Steam account if Valve believes other EXE are not legal (guilty until proven innocent), EULA above local law, possible auto-updates by 3rd party DRM of your computers drivers, internet requirements for offline play, etc... These are the bad things that the good things cover up. This is what the uproar is about.

Thats it. Steam data mining tells Valve when/if the Red team is winning too much. Thats a good thing.

I never said anything different. In fact, AFAIK Steam is not data mining without consent currently. Steam is not set up with extensive abilities to do so, if it did not plan on using them. Valve has said themselves it is one of the only ways to 'fight pirates'. Fighting pirates with data-mining involves getting information about other consumer priorities (demographics, etc.), not only who wins a game.

 

[Tylerryan79]

I think Senethro put a bullet through this one... But i still think its wrong to call people para oid over data mining ect on steam.... Ill be buying the game myself, but i wouldnt put it past any company to do something that benifits them in the long run, especially when id have no way of knowing. I sure dont trust a company to have my best intrests at heart, especially when its whole buisness model is to subscribe to me the right to play a game for as long as they see fit. Thats my main beef.

 

[tom2050]

I think Senethro put a bullet through this one...

You should know what Senethro stated is done now, but is not the end-goal of what Valve wants to do. Valve has said it themselves (from the top). Don't let Senethro fool you.

DRM, better known as copy protection, is hampering game companies&#8217; ability to simply compete with another provider of games: pirates. From Newell&#8217;s point of view, pirates simply economically provide a better service than a traditional games company by getting content to customers more quickly, with less hassle, and without regional delays. The solution, Newell claims, isn&#8217;t to fight them, but to out-compete them.

Of course, Steam is equipped for that fight. By using the service&#8217;s strengths such as extensive data-mining capabilities, the company can be given a competitive advantage.

Fighting pirates using Data-Mining does not work if you only data-mine what a player does in-game.

Fighting pirates using Data-Mining does work possibly by data-mining customer demographics.

Big Difference.

Steam is setup to be able to collect demographic information. They know who will buy what product, by collecting game information as well, they know who plays what games for what periods of time, what games are more popular in certain areas, what games are played on what types of systems. Marketing can direct advertisements to users based on what demographic information is mined from that user that best fits the users personality profile, etc.

EDIT:

By using Valve's online sites and products, users agree that Valve may collect aggregate information, individual information, and personally identifiable information...

"Aggregate information" is information that describes the habits, usage patterns, and demographics of users as a group but does not describe or reveal the identity of any particular user.

This is what Valve is after. The privacy policy, keep in mind, can be altered at any time by Valve; for any reason.

Valve has even gone the length of hiring a Psychologist to push Steam. A bit odd, don't you think?

 

[Tylerryan79]

I meant he put a bullit in some of your quotes there, you did a fox news, editing it to sound worse than the whole thing together. As for the subject matter its about, i agree its potential for misuse is large. There is another thread about steam/macs, and in the article the thread is about it talks about macs crashing less, and when they did crash steam would compile all info gathered, and see what programs the macs were running that may have helped cause crashes ect. The ability to write into steam the function to go after other files of intrest, whatever that could be, isnt that out there. Its like cvs and stop and shop cards, you scan it to save money, and get coupons, but it tracks everything you buy, so it can spit out coupons for things they think youd like. Steam could be done this way and ya its fine in my book, and thats how it seems to be going now. But theres greater room for abuse in steams case, because people do more than game on their pc.

 

[Senethro]

Valve has even gone the length of hiring a Psychologist to push Steam. A bit odd, don't you think?

Go on, tell us what it means. Without sounding paranoid.

 

[Ahriman]

You've stated your opinion 1000 times Seth..if you dont have anything new to add stop trolling and go somewhere else.

Pot... kettle... black...

*edit*
Oh, and wow. Just, wow.

An outfit like Valve, however, can get provide even better service, even by doing something as intrusive as data-mining their customers' computers ...

"An outfit like Valve, however, can get provide even better service, even by doing something as intrusive as data-mining their customers' computers -- as long as they are transparent about it and can prove to the customer that taking such measures will make the customers' games better."

You were actually sufficiently irony-impaired to try make a point about transparency, by cutting their statement about transparency in order to distort it.

 

[Zeiter]

I love playing Civ4 on my laptop on long bus rides and flights. I suppose this won't be possible anymore with Civ5 if it requires Internet in order to play it.

Edit: Nevermind. Apparently steam only requires internet for activation.

 

[arstal]

And you guys have already said you're not buying the game based on an integral component of it. So why do you keep coming back to a site about the game you're not going to buy?

If you're doing some kind of consumer protest then go to the 2K forums (i.e. the publisher, the guys who actually made this call) and not spam up a board about Civilization.

There's more to CF then Civ V. Civ IV's still a pretty good game, plus I'm sure the new FFH will have a presense here, as will Elemental.

 

[Senethro]

I love playing Civ4 on my laptop on long bus rides and flights. I suppose this won't be possible anymore with Civ5 if it requires Internet in order to play it.

Yes it will, you just put Steam into offline mode and Civ5 will run without internet.

No new questions under the sun...

There's more to CF then Civ V. Civ IV's still a pretty good game, plus I'm sure the new FFH will have a presense here, as will Elemental.

This isn't the FFH or Elemental board. If its not Civ5 then its offtopic.

 

[deanej]

Yes it will, you just put Steam into offline mode and Civ5 will run without internet.

No new questions under the sun...



This isn't the FFH or Elemental board. If its not Civ5 then its offtopic.

Even in offline mode, steam connects to the internet. And it's not entirely certain how well offline mode works (there are reports that if an update is available, you cannot play the game, even in offline mode).

Given that 2K made steam an integral part of civ5, it's very much on topic. And it's not like there's anything else to talk about anyways.