Variation in value of luxuries

[Ahriman]

Marble give you a Wonder bonus.
Wine and incense are boosted by monastery.
Gold and silver are boosted by mint.
Whales and pearls are boosted by seaport.
Gems at least has a superior tile bonus.

But other luxuries... cotton, dyes, furs, ivory, silk, spices, sugar, get no bonus.

Am I missing something, or are the former much better than the latter?

 

[Mathemagics]

Dont furs only appear in forest tiles? If thats the case that means theyll always be one of those excellent food+hammer+gold tiles while the other resources would have to randomly end up on plains tiles for the same effect.

Ivory can be used to build the Circus (I think the 2nd most efficient gold: ratio building after Coliseum), which I guess makes it a bit more versatile than some of the others listed.

Also the camp is unlocked by Trapping which lies on the Civil Service slingshot path, so I would put both Fur and Ivory as slightly higher than the non-boosted plantation resources.

 

[Ahriman]

Ah! Forgot the circus. Good, ivory gets something.

I think your point about trapping is irrelevant, since calendar is also in the path to civil service.

I don't think "appears in forests" is a particular advantage.
I would say: the bonus improvement doesn't require the forest to be chopped, that is an advantage. Very frustrating when you have to chop the forest first before building a plantation.

 

[Mathemagics]

Hmm I dont think it is (but then again Im at work atm and cant easily check).

Doesnt Civil Service require:

Pottery ---> Writing ---> Philosophy ---> Civil Service

Animal Husbandry ---> Trapping ---> Civil Service

Was under the impression Calendar branched off Pottery but wasnt necessary for Civil Service.

Well the potential benefit of forest tiles is that theyre always at least 1 food and 1 hammer, regardless of the terrain (or any hills) beneath them. And since fur is a luxury resource it adds gold. So because camps dont remove forests, youll always end up with one of those food+hammer+gold tiles that get a huge boost whenever you hit a GA compared to a plantation which very often ends up on a grassland or flood plain with no hammer bonus.

 

[Martin Alvito]

Things that can be mined are better than things that cannot be mined in first city. As a rule, you'd prefer to defer the later resource techs unless you're on a beeline or building the associated Wonder. You'd rather not defer Mining due to the associated Worker options.

Doesn't the demo have a Tundra Fur without a Forest near Ramesses? I think that Fur is like Civ 4 - Tundra or Forest near the poles.

In a Forest is fantastic. +20H early on for the low price of three Worker turns without long-term consequences is great. You give up fewer Hammers/Gold equivalents from deferring later improvements than you receive, and you get the bonus NOW.

 

[Ahriman]

Hmm I dont think it is (but then again Im at work atm and cant easily check).

Ah, you're right! I thought for some reason that theology was requierd for CS, but of course it isn't.

Well the potential benefit of forest tiles is that theyre always at least 1 food and 1 hammer, regardless of the terrain (or any hills) beneath them. And since fur is a luxury resource it adds gold. So because camps dont remove forests, youll always end up with one of those food+hammer+gold tiles that get a huge boost whenever you hit a GA compared to a plantation which very often ends up on a grassland or flood plain with no hammer bonus.

I take your point, I just think its a very minor issue, and that the not-requiring forest-to-be-chopped is a more important advantage.
But still small compared to those from mint or monastery (or circus).

Things that can be mined are better than things that cannot be mined

Agreed.
Which just reinforces the weakness of silk, dye, cotton, sugar, spices.
This is also a relative weakness of marble, which is otherwise a truly excellent resource.

In a Forest is fantastic. Free +20H early on without long-term consequences is great.

Don't understand this.

 

[Martin Alvito]

Chopping a Forest has consequences later. Either you should have Milled it or TPed it. Either way you lost valuable resources to the chop.

In the case of the Forested luxury, there is no later opportunity cost for your chop.

 

[Mathemagics]

I take your point, I just think its a very minor issue, and that the not-requiring forest-to-be-chopped is a more important advantage.
But still small compared to those from mint or monastery (or circus).

Yeah I agree, theyre all still weaker than the ones you already listed as superior. I would just say that Fur and Ivory are a tiny bit less crappy than the un-boosted plantation luxuries by virtue of being unlocked by a tech on the Civil Service beeline if nothing else.

Unless of course youre shooting for Stonehenge out the gate, that obsoletes that argument pretty well lol.

 

[Ahriman]

Chopping a Forest has consequences later. Either you should have Milled it or TPed it. Either way you lost valuable resources to the chop.

In the case of the Forested luxury, there is no later opportunity cost for your chop.

I still don't understand what you're saying.

There are two types of luxuries; ones where you have to chop the forest in order to build the improvement (eg plantation), and ones where you don't (camp).

The latter seem unambiguously superior to me, all else equal.

For the former, you are forced to chop the forest now, which takes time, and which removes a potential hammer bonus (forest on grassland). For the latter, you lose nothing. You *can* still chop the forest if you want to (without any loss for a forest on plains), but you don't have to.