Vassals???

[phl]

Hi! Been here since the lanch of civ III just never had anything cleaver to say since i've bought Warlords.

Vassals??? WTH!!!

I don't understand they dont wote in the UN as you, they don't give you their techs, you can't see their cities (as it's said somewhere), they still hate you and so on

Ok so you get their land in domination and you can choose what they will research. I think thats a quite a low price for "helping" them. If it's capitulation you spear them from complete destruction and paying more in maintenance for your own cities and if they ask you to bee their master in case someone is attacking them you have to start a war and pay more maintenence plus that those who like you but hates your vassal thinks now less of you.

Is it really so that the only good thing with vassals is if your going for a conquest victory (witch i've never done since civIII to warlords including PTW and Conquests)

Thanks phl

 

[GoodSarmatian]

The other good thing is a relyable ally. Monty and Alex are rabid dogs, but as vassal thye can't declare wars and are loyal to their master. I prefer to be generous to my vassals and give them tech and money from time to time. So I improve relations between me and them and they'll trade tech with me.
You can also tell the what to research, so you can plan research paths for them and for you and trade (of course you'll first have to make sure they don't hate you any more.
Make sure they become strong again, a weak vassal is useless.

 

[CaptainCan]

I don't understand they dont wote in the UN as you, they don't give you their techs, you can't see their cities (as it's said somewhere), they still hate you and so on

Actually, fog of war is removed in every one of their cities and surroundings. But yes, they do not give you free techs. Also, vassals can definately hate their masters, especially if you capitulate them through war, many examples in history... they revolt any chance they get if the master is in a jam.

Make sure they become strong again, a weak vassal is useless.

If your economy can support them, sometimes weak vassals are fine. I accept capitulation from opponents when I wish to focus my forces on another campaign. You can strip them of their resources, and the +1 (for each vassal) to all cities is a plus to combat war weariness in your next extended campaigns.

 

[phl]

Ok I see the point, but how do you actually get them to bee your vassal if they are even half strong (when they could be of use), they all says screw you or something similar.

 

[CaptainCan]

Ok I see the point, but how do you actually get them to bee your vassal if they are even half strong (when they could be of use), they all says screw you or something similar.

Well, if they are half decent, they will usually say that they are doing fine by themselves and will not join you. I really do not bother with making vassals stronger (if you are making them stronger, you lose the opportunity of making yourself even stronger). I just let them serve as cannon fodder especially if they border an opponent.

If they are decent and you wish to use them, I suggest you just befriend them through diplomatic means and simply become friends instead. Otherwise, beat the hell out them and make them submit to you and use them as cannon fodder and as a resource colony .

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Ok I see the point, but how do you actually get them to bee your vassal if they are even half strong (when they could be of use), they all says screw you or something similar.

Beat the crap out of them, but try to not to let the -x : "you razed one of our cities" get too high. After they surrenderd trade resources (trade, don't demand), sign open borders and give them tech to improve relations and make sure they will have a decent military to help you in wars. But when they start capturing your enemies cities, try to conquer faster than your vassals. They won't break free as long as they don't have half the population and land as their master, even if their military is stronger than their master's.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

I really do not bother with making vassals stronger (if you are making them stronger, you lose the opportunity of making yourself even stronger).

You don't lose anything if you gift them gunpowder and let them research chemistry and steel while you go for Liberalism. Just make sure they don't hate and you can trade with them (Mansa is a good vassal for this cause, Toku gawa is...ehm...not so good}

I just let them serve as cannon fodder especially if they border an opponent.

Cannon fodder, what a waste. Recently Tokugawa surrendered to me and he served me well as a buffer between my Persian empire and the Ottomans. The enemy would have to cross his land to reach me, and with modern military tech Toku was very good at slowing them down. A good vassal to have if your leader is not agressive or protective.

 

[phl]

Ok! So if they are between you and your enemy they might be usefull, but otherwise i can't really see the big point having them. If they acctually have many resources you would need they are too big to be your vassal (in most cases). And if you feed them too much they will revolt.

I think they could be useful if you could automatically aquire their technologies and share the resources they have (one way) maybe even give them cities you capture to get them to grow stronger but still stay as your vassal as long as they like you.

In this case they should maybe be a bit harder to gain.

Don't really know haven't thougt out all the possibilities but anyway I think the consept is a little bit rushed.

Example:
If you look att all the former USSR countries eg.Estonia, I don't think they had many technologies nor resources that waren't in the russian powers.

Yes I know one shouldn't try to compare a game to reality as it is quite often done, I just think that we are missing something.

PHL

 

[CaptainCan]

I actually do not find having vassals that great of an advantage. I mostly accept capitulation simply because I want to end the war early and concentrate my forces somewhere else (and for the +1 bonus to all cities).

Cannon fodder, what a waste. Recently Tokugawa surrendered to me and he served me well as a buffer between my Persian empire and the Ottomans. The enemy would have to cross his land to reach me, and with modern military tech Toku was very good at slowing them down. A good vassal to have if your leader is not agressive or protective.

Well, the vassals I have serving as "cannon fodder" means that they act as a buffer for me. They are still able to defend themselves against an enemy for quite a while, but it is quite difficult to muster a vassal strong enough to be a threat for an enemy (actually attack well) while still being weak enough to be under the bonds of vassalage.

Because the vassal is usually extremely small and weak compared to you anyway, they research very slowly and will not be much of a help to you even if they are willing to swap technologies. Again, if you let them to grow bigger, you run the risk of them declaring independence.

 

[Raisin Bran]

Why is it that when you have a vassal you can't see through their WHOLE culture border.

Its really the only thing that annoys me about vassals.

Im in a game where I made Egypt capitulate and they became my vassal. Their only city left is Their capital with a big cultural border but I can only see the 8 squares around the capital. Why is it that there is still fog of war in the vassal's territory?

 

[Proteus]

I don´t know why it is, but I can say,
that it is the same for vassals with several cities.
Only the fat Xses around their cities are free from fog of war,
everything else still has it.

 

[Murky]

I have used capitulation to get a quick conquest victory over two rivals. The first couple of civs I just totally wiped out because I didn't have feudalism yet. The last few eventually did capitulate after losing some cities. The Ottomans were too afraid of the Germans at first because I was at war with both at once. Soon as a few german cities fell they were both ready to become vassals and the game was won.

 

[FenrysWulf]

Vassals would be more useful to me if I could command their armies. I was fighting a war against the Vikings, and Egypt was my vassal. I had my armies surrounding a viking city, just waiting until I had enough units in the area to take the city, and instead of doing something useful like attacking with their siege equipment, the Egyptians just went around pillaging all the roads and improvements. I don't pillage outside of a city I want to capture because I'm just going to have to build all that stuff again. So a few turns later I capture the city with no offensive help from Egypt, and now I have to rebuild all the roads.

I have found that if you don't accept capitulation, they will look for someone else who will, so I've been forced to accept capitulation because if I don't, someone else will take them and then I'll end up at war with a new country. I don't really mind fighting, but it can get pretty tough on the economy if the war drags on too long.