Vassals

[roadrunner23]

I've been playing civ bts again after about an 18 month hiatus. Something has happened in the last two games that was totally unexpected. I was happily conquering Spain (or Germany in the current game) and down to the last two cities and Spain suddenly becomes a vassal to Babylon (or Germany to Cambodia) and I find myself at war with virtually the whole map due to other vassalage arrangements. What causes this? What can I do to prevent it? It is pretty discouraging.

 

[Baldyr]

To be someone's vassal means that you're under that someone's protection. So, Isabella found a Sugar Daddy in Hamurabi. She pretty much thought that it would be better to be Babylon's subject than to capitulate to you - and be your vassal. And Hamurabi opted to declare war on you for being able to dominate her.

In essence Spain got Babylonia to join in the war against you. Isabella probably didn't have much left to offer as a bribe than... her freedom. So Spain basically lost the war, now its only a matter if you too will lose this war.

edit: I believe the only thing you can do to not get caught in this situation again is to disable Vassals in the Custom Game options, pre-game.

 

[Gary King]

Or destroy the relationship between whoever you are fighting and everyone else before going to war with them. The civ you were fighting vassaled to another civ because they had a good relationship with each other. Which is why it's often better to fight a civ that has no friends.

 

[Dr.Null]

Which is why it's often better to fight a civ that has no friends.

This explains so much about high school.

 

[HanzooznaH]

^^lol

 

[FriendoftheDork]

Hmm yes this is annoying. Not because you suddenly risk war with people you might even be somewhat friendly with, or would otherwise have no reason to attack you. It's annoying because there is nothing you can do with it. Realistically, there should be a warning to immediately declare white peace with the vassal OR declare on the master and his other vassals.

It's as if Hitler DoWed Poland and Britain and France DoWed germany in the middle of the war with no warning instead of the ultimatums.

So you can either live with it, load the game and make peace with the civ you're fighting (might be considered cheating), or stay here and whine about it

And if you don't chose option C you're not a real civfanatic

 

[Gary King]

Or just vassal the civ as soon as the option is available?

 

[6K Man]

Vassals definitely add several levels of intricacy to Civ4 diplomacy.

If you vassal a civ that everyone else hates, everyone's attitude towards you will (secretly) worsen because they hate your vassal. Oddly, if you vassal a civ that everyone else loves, that doesn't seem to improve the world's attitude towards you!

If you vassal someone whose cities you've taken, you'll get motherland unhappiness and possible cultural pressure, and can never conquer more cities and finish off the vassal for good. But if you make peace instead of taking them as a vassal, there's a very good chance they'll vassal to someone else.

As a result, I try not to take any vassals other than voluntary ones, or at least ones who I haven't taken cities from.

 

[Cusanus]

What can I do to prevent it?

There is one thing you can at least try.

When you fear that Hammurabi will become your victim's protector, just go visit him and ask him for one gold. (Or anything else he doesn't value too much. World maps, a useless resource...)

If he is willing to give in to this bagatelle demand, it still creates a ten turns peace treaty between the two of you - one that he can't break. This makes it impossible for him to become your enemy's master.

Some might find it's abusive. Anyway, I'm just telling you that it's possible.

 

[King Flevance]

Also often check AFTER you have assaulted a city but BEFORE you actually take it. (i.e. you have killed off 10 of his 11 defenders and all that is left is a sole pikeman at 1.2 ) They are usually suddenly willing to vassal at that point to save a city. Check every turn before you attack the city, assault it, and check again right before you take it. That's if you want them to become your vassal though. Usually, that will give you first dibs on capitulation.

Otherwise, use Cusanus's method.

 

[MyOtherName]

If he is willing to give in to this bagatelle demand, it still creates a ten turns peace treaty between the two of you - one that he can't break. This makes it impossible for him to become your enemy's master.

Have you tested it? There are some edge cases that allow a peace treaty to be violated.

 

[Gary King]

Does the AI only give in to demands like that if your Power rating is pretty significant? Because they always just reject my demands, and I end up having them at a "Furious" relationship with me just by doing that

 

[Galadrion]

Offer a trade, rather than just a demand. Either that, or offer them one GPT or something equally trivial. It still creates the 10-turn peace treaty, but instead of hitting you with a diplo penalty, it's either null value or gives you a slight bonus - and there's a much smaller chance of them turning it down - basically none, as far as I can tell.

(Although if I did offer someone a one GPT bribe and they turned it down, I'd start to be very paranoid about their intentions...)

 

[Cusanus]

Offer a trade, rather than just a demand. Either that, or offer them one GPT or something equally trivial. It still creates the 10-turn peace treaty,

No, it doesn't.

You can trade stuff and even declare war later the same turn.
And so can the AI.

- - -
The AI will often give in to 10 gold demands if you are reasonably strong or have quite good relations with them. If they do, for the next ten turns, they can't be bribed into war against you at any costs. And another AI vasallizing to them would be a bribe.

They still can declare on you if e.g. forced by an AP resolution, of course.

Shure, it's not a method that you can use every time, because the AI can always refuse to give you what you ask for. But it is sometimes worth trying.

 

[HanzooznaH]

Actually i recall 2 games where i was owning japan (If they would have given me open borders all would be fine) then all of a sudden peace happened, my troops were ejected but i could still invade again the same turn....I remember it had to do with vasselage, but i cant remember completly atm...



(needless to say i was not happy about this)

 

[Rygaros]

I have another question regardin the vassal wich hvant hapend to me before.

Usually I get a A1 to become my vassal when I've attacked him enough so he only have a few citys left. Come to my suprise that this time the A1(mansa musa) asked me if he could be my vassal.
The odd thing was that I was currently at war with another nation(ragnar). Mansa musa werent at war with any other A1, he were cautios towards me, I'm the founder of buddism and hes the founder of islam and he comes up with this proposal.

How is that make any sense?
(playing the fifth difficulty grade)

 

[Galadrion]

No, it doesn't.

You can trade stuff and even declare war later the same turn.
And so can the AI.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. It's the deal where you give them the trivial tribute that earns you the peace treaty. You are correct that trade does not gain you a treaty - it does, however make most of the leaders somewhat more reluctant to declare on you.

 

[Silu]

I have another question regardin the vassal wich hvant hapend to me before.

Usually I get a A1 to become my vassal when I've attacked him enough so he only have a few citys left. Come to my suprise that this time the A1(mansa musa) asked me if he could be my vassal.
The odd thing was that I was currently at war with another nation(ragnar). Mansa musa werent at war with any other A1, he were cautios towards me, I'm the founder of buddism and hes the founder of islam and he comes up with this proposal.

How is that make any sense?
(playing the fifth difficulty grade)

It makes sense because he is Mansa Musa, he's coded to be very willing to accept any variety of masters for himself through peaceful vassalage even though he really wouldn't need one. He's unique in this regard, no other Civ is even close in eagerness to offer vassalage.

That makes him kind of fun to play against in Duel maps; just expand, grow, and eventually he will ask to become your vassal giving you the Conquest win

 

[Gary King]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. It's the deal where you give them the trivial tribute that earns you the peace treaty. You are correct that trade does not gain you a treaty - it does, however make most of the leaders somewhat more reluctant to declare on you.

The peace treaty only occurs when the AI demands something from you and you give it to them, or if you demand something from them and they give it to you. You can't just give something, anything to an AI to force a 10-turn peace treaty, otherwise that could definitely be ridiculously abused. Demanding tribute, on the other hand, can seriously damage the AI's relationship with you, so it's a definite trade-off.

 

[Rygaros]

It makes sense because he is Mansa Musa, he's coded to be very willing to accept any variety of masters for himself through peaceful vassalage even though he really wouldn't need one. He's unique in this regard, no other Civ is even close in eagerness to offer vassalage.

That makes him kind of fun to play against in Duel maps; just expand, grow, and eventually he will ask to become your vassal giving you the Conquest win

Oh, is that so. I've played against him some times before but this never occured.
Ty for the info, good to know. I just started to like him a little bit mor from now on

"Mansa Musa, with the enormous lips. You henceforth will have my trust and resepct"