Vast unkown battles.

[philippe]

I wrote a paper about the effects of the Paraguayan War on Paraguay last semester; a truly devastating conflict.

however, kafka 2 wrote a brilliant (as always) about a british amateur holding back the three allied forces with brilliat tactics and fortifications.

 

[rilnator]

How this is unknown?

How someone can not be aware one of the most largest land operations ever conducted in the history of warfare? I mean it was monumental. We're talking about destroying armies in Army Group Centre here.

Compared to Kursk, Moscow, Stalingrad, Berlin, even Kharkov and Kiev it is virtually unknown.

A lot of people know about El Alamein and the 'Battle of the Bulge' but these 2had a lot less impact on the war.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

I mentioned this in the "disasterous battles" thread, too.

Siege of Cartagena de Indias, 1741

It was a colossal victory for the Spanish, and led to British defeat in the War of Jenkins' Ear. It was also the first time soldiers from Britain's American Colonies fought overseas. No one knows it happened, it is a forgotten battle in a forgotten war, which is even more eclipsed by the War of Austrian Succession, which is in turn again forgotten.

Also, there is this battle, which every knows, yet no one knows they know.

Battle of Stirling Bridge

It's the big battle in Braveheart (though very poorly depicted), and the great victory of the First War of Scottish Independence. The Scots trapped the English on the bridge and slaughtered them as they forced across, eventually knocking out the bridge's piers, killing even more English, and then chasing them from the field.

however, kafka 2 wrote a brilliant (as always) about a british amateur holding back the three allied forces with brilliat tactics and fortifications.

Linky?

 

[philippe]

I


Linky?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=120047

 

[privatehudson]

Also, there is this battle, which every knows, yet no one knows they know.

Battle of Stirling Bridge

It's the big battle in Braveheart (though very poorly depicted), and the great victory of the First War of Scottish Independence. The Scots trapped the English on the bridge and slaughtered them as they forced across, eventually knocking out the bridge's piers, killing even more English, and then chasing them from the field.

Actually they didn't strictly speaking slaughter them on the bridge, they let the vanguard of around 6,000 men cross unopposed then attacked it, driving them back into a loop in the river and away from the bridge. They then held the bridge to prevent the main body from crossing and slaughtered the trapped vanguard almost to a man (a small contingent of cavalry cut its way back over the bridge).

If you get the chance to visit Stirling I can highly reccomend a visit to the grand Victorian monument to William Wallace because its situated on Abbey Craig, a piece of high ground from where Wallace is said to have watched the English cross the river. Because its such a tall tower a short climb of it gives you superb views of the surrounding countryside. I took the following photo from there.

If you wish I could try labelling it to illustrate how the photo relates to points of the battle?

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

That would be very helpful.

 

[privatehudson]

I've cropped the photo to the relevant part for you.

The site of the current footbridge is thought to be relatively close to the site of the bridge present in Wallace's time, so that would have been around where the English (coming from Stirling Castle) would have crossed. The thick black line represents the positions that the English vanguard drew up in readiness to receive the Scots charge which came in from the direction represented by the thick black arrow. Its hard to follow the course of the river in the photobut it flows under the bridges and curves slightly towards the castle as it exits the photo.

As you can see any force trapped in the area that the vanguard were would have no chance unless they could cut their way back to and over the bridge. The looping pinkish coloured track which the English starting positions cuts through is roughly the line of a causeway that existed in Wallace's time.

Sadly I didn't take too many other photos from the top of the tower because it was blowing a gale and a few hundred feet up, which is not a pleasant situation to be in when you hate heights!

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Why couldn't they go through the river to escape? It's hardly even a river, more like a glorified stream.

 

[privatehudson]

Its a little bigger than it would appear in that photo, this is the view from the bridge in either direction.

Plus you have to remember that the majority of the English soldiers were wearing some form of armour which would have weighed them down too much to swim effectively. The Scotish charge caught the vanguard off guard and the chaos and slaughter in the ranks must have made it difficult to determine a good course of action. I believe that 300 or so lightly armoured Welsh foot soldiers did make it across but most of the remainder either drowned trying or were slaughtered by the Scotish army.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Its a little bigger than it would appear in that photo, this is the view from the bridge in either direction.

Plus you have to remember that the majority of the English soldiers were wearing some form of armour which would have weighed them down too much to swim effectively. The Scotish charge caught the vanguard off guard and the chaos and slaughter in the ranks must have made it difficult to determine a good course of action. I believe that 300 or so lightly armoured Welsh foot soldiers did make it across but most of the remainder either drowned trying or were slaughtered by the Scotish army.

That's interesting. I've read before that armor was not as cumbersome weight-wise as it is romanticized to be; a physically fit man could quite well swim in it, and even run down an unarmored man, because the weight was distributed well across the entire body. They tried and proved this on a History Channel special. Course, I suppose your average soldier in 1297 didn't exactly hit the gym a few days a week, either, but I wouldn't expect most of them to be physically incapable of using the armor they're wearing.

 

[RalofTyr]

The Welsh made it across because the English probably didn't see the need to give them armor.

The armor of your average English soldier was usually scavenged previous battles and in not the best fit or condition. If they trained in their armor, they'd be fit enough to go into battle with it.

 

[privatehudson]

That's interesting. I've read before that armor was not as cumbersome weight-wise as it is romanticized to be; a physically fit man could quite well swim in it, and even run down an unarmored man, because the weight was distributed well across the entire body.

I suspect that it would depend on which armour we're talking about and how fast flowing the river was at the time, some rivers are hard enough to swim without armour let alone with it. Plus you'd have to ask how many soldiers actually knew how to swim normally, let alone swim wearing armour.

The very fact that the vast majority of the vanguard didn't survive tends to suggest that it wasn't easy to escape that way.

 

[rilnator]

I suspect that it would depend on which armour we're talking about and how fast flowing the river was at the time, some rivers are hard enough to swim without armour let alone with it. Plus you'd have to ask how many soldiers actually knew how to swim normally, let alone swim wearing armour.

And Poms have never been known for their swimming abilities either.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

It is my understanding that most people didn't actually know how to swim back then, odd as that may seem.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

I do remember Ben Franklin's "swimming lessons" campaign being rather revolutionary, you're probably right.

 

[privatehudson]

It is my understanding that most people didn't actually know how to swim back then, odd as that may seem.

Well its hard to learn how to swim when you're so good at making sure its your enemies who have to take a dip when you sink their ships

 

[Wilphe]

I'll second Bagration not being as well known as it should be.

Potted history of the Eastern Front goes:

Barbarrossa -> Moscow -> Stalingrad -> Kursk -> Berlin (see also Leningrad)



Off my own bat I'll throw in Khalkin Gol (sp?)

 

[C~G]

Compared to Kursk, Moscow, Stalingrad, Berlin, even Kharkov and Kiev it is virtually unknown.

I'll second Bagration not being as well known as it should be.

Potted history of the Eastern Front goes:

Barbarrossa -> Moscow -> Stalingrad -> Kursk -> Berlin (see also Leningrad)

Maybe it is indeed for those that study just standard history but surely anyone that even glimpses towards military history will basically find it right away?

Maybe it has to do with the fact that after Kursk (Kharkov and Kiev aren't necessarily well known either) the description of Russian advance towards Berlin is kind of simplified in history books.


But to the subject I could chip in Battle of Hurtgen Forest (sp?).

 

[Loki130]

Sevastapol in WW2 could be considerred a great battle and is certainly unknown

 

[Dachs]

Sevastapol in WW2 could be considerred a great battle and is certainly unknown

Aah, that brings me back. When Wikipedia was young and sparsely populated, I actually started the article on the Siege... Guess that qualifies as making it 'unknown'.