VainApocalypse
Warlord
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2010
- Messages
- 245
Version 2 Update (Check the first image for a tl;dr):
This is a mod that will add Venice as a Civilization. I'm revealing it here to receive some feedback on my design. The mod is essentially finished. It mainly needs balancing now.
I wanted to design a Venice that was competitive, fun, and historically flavorful. I wanted it to focus on trade and culture and to be tallish but have a real route to victory. Let me know how well you think this design meets these criteria. As of now, none of the numbers are finalized.
Any tall Civ design has to confront the fact that Civ VI doesn't respect the Tall/Wide dichotomy. There are advantages to being big (Great Work Slots, Trade Routes, Science, Income, Culture, District caps, Build Queues) and none for being small. I try to address these here. Take a look.
Details
My Venice CAN capture cities, but it can't build them. I more or less had to plan around this since there's no puppet mechanic, but it actually relieves some of the stress of being tall. If Venice REALLY needs an extra Great Work slot or Trade Route, they can take it. Due to brutal warmonger penalties, I still don't expect to see many people play a wide Venice
This is a powerful combo, in my opinion. Not only will Venice enjoy all the amenities, yields and buffs from city-state vassals, but Venice will be able to field larger armies despite their limited build queue due to being able to deploy City-State units. It's historically flavorful. Representing the fourth crusade and centuries of reliance on mercenaries, my Venice will be exceedingly good at fighting with units that aren't their own.
This replaces the catapult and would be the only naval siege unit in the game. The fact that Dandolo has no catapults will make it very hard for him to capture inland cities, but he'll excel at capturing cities near the coast. This represents the fact that Venice was twice able to successfully siege Constantinople by attacking the walls with galleys and amphibious landings.
People might expect an economic policy slot, but I think a diplomatic one is more appropriate. The economic policies offer buffs to settler production and district adjacency. These don't benefit Venice as much; they have no settlers and will probably have fewer districts. What's more, the diplomatic policies capture a lot of Venice's historical flavor. The reason Venice was so successful in trade was BECAUSE they were diplomatically competent. The diplomatic policies also allude to Venice's storied history of espionage.
People rightfully pointed out that Venice needs a way to increase their trade route capacity if they're going to be so reliant on their trade routes. However, there needs to be a relatively small cap on this. For example, if every district in any city increased the Trade Route capacity, Venice would build ~30 neighborhoods in every city and quickly surpass everyone in the game. So the buff is limited to the capital (Reflecting Venice's centralized focus) and on Specialty Districts (Encampment, Campus, Entertainment Complex, Aerodrome, Commercial Hub, Holy Site, Harbor, Industrial Zone and Theater District).
Venice also receives a Gold discount on patronage. This helps make up for Venice's lack of Great Person Points and reflects a monetary focus for the Civ.
The trade routes from the Muda offset Venice's Tallness the most with raw yield bonuses. It's the game's only unique unit that doesn't become obsolete, and to compensate for this, it will be more expensive. The LARGE tourism pressure bonus makes up for Venice's lack of Great Work slots and compels Venice to ensure that their trade routes span the globe.
I think the consistently high housing is important for keeping on par with wider civs who have more population. The Marsh adjacency makes Venice a little dependent on terrain, but doesn't deprive Venice of a Unique if they have a bad start. Even one marsh tile can provide Venice with a lot of extra tourism.
Gameplay
Wide play isn't impossible for Venice, but will involve irreparable Warmonger penalties. Venice will lean toward having one or a few cities that may not be contiguous.
Anything Venice wants will come from trade, so Venice will be obsessive about its trade routes, always looking for ways to increase capacity and protect existing ones. In my playthroughs, losing a trade route hurts like losing a city, so you're very cautious about where you send your Muda and how closely you escort them. This also means that the easiest way to disrupt Venice is to blockade her.
Venice easily picks up City-State vassals using both the influence buff and the additional diplomatic policy slot, and they're the first place you look for units when war is looming.
Winning a cultural victory (Needs additional playtesting) is less about hoarding Great Works (though that is important) and more about occupying marshland and making sure your trade reaches every Civ.
With the War Galley and Sestiere, you'll spend the mid-game looking for marshy coastal cities you can steal.These will not only net you extra tourism but extend your trade (and tourism) range.
Venice is about trade, diplomatic influence, culture, and carefully targeted military adventures.
FAQ
Sometime around the first or second week of July if there are no unforeseen hurdles.
Depending on how well a City-State keeps up (it does vary), it may not be as useful late game. It will still be useful early and mid game before City-States fall behind.
I'm aware and am looking for a solution to this.
I don't want to make the Most Serene ability too dependent on City-States. The influence buff comes from the leader, and there's a real possibility I may eventually add a second leader who doesn't have an influence buff.
I don't see the need for this. Trade Posts add range, and I do want some incentive for Venice to sometimes snag another city or two. Remember, Venice was as imperial as it was a republic.
The Doge's Palace has a unique problem. It's hard to replace the Palace with a unique. Even if it's replaced, the game is hard-coded to place a Palace in your first city.
I liked these at first, but the problem with them is that there's only one of them. They're more like Unique National Wonders (if you remember National Wonders from V). Unique districts and buildings are usually things that were ubiquitous with the Civilization, something they built again and again. The Sestieri Venetians are so proud of comes to mind. There were six in Venice and they were copied for some of their colonies.
Furthermore, maybe this will serve as an educational opportunity. Everyone knows about the Grand Canal and Rialto, but who can name the Sestieri of Venice?
I would love to, but I don't have the skill If you have appropriate art laying around or could whip some up for me, I'll include it and give you credit wherever I post the mod.
Here's what I want to know now. Does it seem balanced? Would you try difference numbers or abilities? Does it seem fun? Does it seem too "busy" or "loaded"? Let me know what you guys think
-----------------------------------------------------------
EDIT 6 (07/16/17)
Venice 1.0 RELEASED on the Steam Workshop.
-----------------------------------------------------------
This is a mod that will add Venice as a Civilization. I'm revealing it here to receive some feedback on my design. The mod is essentially finished. It mainly needs balancing now.
I wanted to design a Venice that was competitive, fun, and historically flavorful. I wanted it to focus on trade and culture and to be tallish but have a real route to victory. Let me know how well you think this design meets these criteria. As of now, none of the numbers are finalized.
Any tall Civ design has to confront the fact that Civ VI doesn't respect the Tall/Wide dichotomy. There are advantages to being big (Great Work Slots, Trade Routes, Science, Income, Culture, District caps, Build Queues) and none for being small. I try to address these here. Take a look.
Details
My Venice CAN capture cities, but it can't build them. I more or less had to plan around this since there's no puppet mechanic, but it actually relieves some of the stress of being tall. If Venice REALLY needs an extra Great Work slot or Trade Route, they can take it. Due to brutal warmonger penalties, I still don't expect to see many people play a wide Venice
This is a powerful combo, in my opinion. Not only will Venice enjoy all the amenities, yields and buffs from city-state vassals, but Venice will be able to field larger armies despite their limited build queue due to being able to deploy City-State units. It's historically flavorful. Representing the fourth crusade and centuries of reliance on mercenaries, my Venice will be exceedingly good at fighting with units that aren't their own.
This replaces the catapult and would be the only naval siege unit in the game. The fact that Dandolo has no catapults will make it very hard for him to capture inland cities, but he'll excel at capturing cities near the coast. This represents the fact that Venice was twice able to successfully siege Constantinople by attacking the walls with galleys and amphibious landings.
People might expect an economic policy slot, but I think a diplomatic one is more appropriate. The economic policies offer buffs to settler production and district adjacency. These don't benefit Venice as much; they have no settlers and will probably have fewer districts. What's more, the diplomatic policies capture a lot of Venice's historical flavor. The reason Venice was so successful in trade was BECAUSE they were diplomatically competent. The diplomatic policies also allude to Venice's storied history of espionage.
People rightfully pointed out that Venice needs a way to increase their trade route capacity if they're going to be so reliant on their trade routes. However, there needs to be a relatively small cap on this. For example, if every district in any city increased the Trade Route capacity, Venice would build ~30 neighborhoods in every city and quickly surpass everyone in the game. So the buff is limited to the capital (Reflecting Venice's centralized focus) and on Specialty Districts (Encampment, Campus, Entertainment Complex, Aerodrome, Commercial Hub, Holy Site, Harbor, Industrial Zone and Theater District).
Venice also receives a Gold discount on patronage. This helps make up for Venice's lack of Great Person Points and reflects a monetary focus for the Civ.
The trade routes from the Muda offset Venice's Tallness the most with raw yield bonuses. It's the game's only unique unit that doesn't become obsolete, and to compensate for this, it will be more expensive. The LARGE tourism pressure bonus makes up for Venice's lack of Great Work slots and compels Venice to ensure that their trade routes span the globe.
I think the consistently high housing is important for keeping on par with wider civs who have more population. The Marsh adjacency makes Venice a little dependent on terrain, but doesn't deprive Venice of a Unique if they have a bad start. Even one marsh tile can provide Venice with a lot of extra tourism.
Gameplay
Wide play isn't impossible for Venice, but will involve irreparable Warmonger penalties. Venice will lean toward having one or a few cities that may not be contiguous.
Anything Venice wants will come from trade, so Venice will be obsessive about its trade routes, always looking for ways to increase capacity and protect existing ones. In my playthroughs, losing a trade route hurts like losing a city, so you're very cautious about where you send your Muda and how closely you escort them. This also means that the easiest way to disrupt Venice is to blockade her.
Venice easily picks up City-State vassals using both the influence buff and the additional diplomatic policy slot, and they're the first place you look for units when war is looming.
Winning a cultural victory (Needs additional playtesting) is less about hoarding Great Works (though that is important) and more about occupying marshland and making sure your trade reaches every Civ.
With the War Galley and Sestiere, you'll spend the mid-game looking for marshy coastal cities you can steal.These will not only net you extra tourism but extend your trade (and tourism) range.
Venice is about trade, diplomatic influence, culture, and carefully targeted military adventures.
FAQ
Sometime around the first or second week of July if there are no unforeseen hurdles.
Depending on how well a City-State keeps up (it does vary), it may not be as useful late game. It will still be useful early and mid game before City-States fall behind.
I'm aware and am looking for a solution to this.
I don't want to make the Most Serene ability too dependent on City-States. The influence buff comes from the leader, and there's a real possibility I may eventually add a second leader who doesn't have an influence buff.
I don't see the need for this. Trade Posts add range, and I do want some incentive for Venice to sometimes snag another city or two. Remember, Venice was as imperial as it was a republic.
The Doge's Palace has a unique problem. It's hard to replace the Palace with a unique. Even if it's replaced, the game is hard-coded to place a Palace in your first city.
I liked these at first, but the problem with them is that there's only one of them. They're more like Unique National Wonders (if you remember National Wonders from V). Unique districts and buildings are usually things that were ubiquitous with the Civilization, something they built again and again. The Sestieri Venetians are so proud of comes to mind. There were six in Venice and they were copied for some of their colonies.
Furthermore, maybe this will serve as an educational opportunity. Everyone knows about the Grand Canal and Rialto, but who can name the Sestieri of Venice?
I would love to, but I don't have the skill If you have appropriate art laying around or could whip some up for me, I'll include it and give you credit wherever I post the mod.
Here's what I want to know now. Does it seem balanced? Would you try difference numbers or abilities? Does it seem fun? Does it seem too "busy" or "loaded"? Let me know what you guys think
-----------------------------------------------------------
EDIT 6 (07/16/17)
Venice 1.0 RELEASED on the Steam Workshop.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Last edited:
