Viability of Pre-Mathematics Chop Rush

[ChesStrategy]

Some of the tips/strategies of certain forum articles still apply to Civ IV and even BTS, but for most strats, after so many balance changes, patches, and expansion releases, the strategies become either harder to implement or become possibly useless.

So I was just wondering, is Chop Rushing (before mathematics; where you get 50% more production from chopping) still a viable strategy in Beyond the Sword?

And if it still is, with the many changes since Civ IV Vanilla, what should you chop out, and what should you just naturally build?

Thanks for all of your inputs!

 

[Tennyson]

I still chop both before and after mathematics. Whether I chop is usually a strategic decision, not a mathematical one - do I need this wonder immediately? Is there a danger of the AI building it before me? Same for buildings - chopping a courthouse can really help the economy.

I'm a little more likely to chop if the forest is on hills, since a mine will regain the hammers. Or if I can chop a square that isn't in the fat cross.

 

[lilnev]

It's definitely still viable, though it's no longer as overpowered. Four turns to move onto and chop a forest is five hammers/worker-turn -- still the fastest source of hammers during those crucial early turns. I'll often chop for a settler that needs to grab a key site, a monument in a city that needs a border pop to access it's best tiles, or an early Wonder. And you can still build axes out of wood.

peace,
lilnev

 

[johnny_rico]

I also agree a chop rush is viable. If it nets your more cities, more turf, possibly another capital city. I'm a big believer in Civ IV that short term gains outweigh long term gains.

By not having mathematics, you're losing 50% of the chop, except its 50% of what you don't have anyway. By chopping the trees you are sacrificing long term health but you find other means to get health in the long run.

 

[GenocideBringer]

And production. I find forests are awesome for giving me production I might not otherwise have.

 

[MrCynical]

It's still a very viable strategy. A hammer in the earliest phase of the game is worth far more than a hammer later on (or indeed 1.5 hammers by the time you've got to mathematics). Being able to chop out another worker and a settler makes a huge difference, and there is minimal up front cost (unlike slavery).

 

[GenocideBringer]

Eh. I disagree.

In my experience, chopping (especially pre-mathematics) doesn't give me more than a 2-4 turn speed increase on settlers, and I play on marathon. The chop, however, can give me some nasty health problems later on and it makes it very hard for most cities to keep up viable production.

If I chop, it's just so I can put an improvement there.

 

[jimbob27]

It's definitely still viable.........before the patches it was stupidly overpowered......... now... it's just one of several tactics which work well.

 

[axident]

The game is not linear. Just chop it if you need it. What are you going to do, wait till math to finally start chopping workers, settlers, and key wonders? Er, no. Race to climb the exponential growth curve.

 

[Diamondeye]

Eh. I disagree.

In my experience, chopping (especially pre-mathematics) doesn't give me more than a 2-4 turn speed increase on settlers, and I play on marathon. The chop, however, can give me some nasty health problems later on and it makes it very hard for most cities to keep up viable production.

If I chop, it's just so I can put an improvement there.

What?
Assuming ratios between marathon and normal on settlers and chops are the same;
On normal speed:
Settler: 120
Chop (Pre-math): 20
Chop (Post-math): 30
If your city has an ok production, 2 chops will still significantly bring down the cost, especially if maths.
Add Imperialistic, and 2 chops is a whole settler.

 

[triacontahedron]

You are asking if you should chop before math... I just started Monarch game on pangea with Gandhi and got really nice plot near river with gold, pigs and forest as far as an eye can see. The only cloud on the horizon was Rome barely 10 tiles away. What should I do ? Wait till Cesar gets to IW ? I don't think so. Long story short now I have Stonehenge, representation from Pyramids and Caste System from COL (Oracle slingshot). In addition the state religion is Judaism with a shrine in Rome. The only cloud now is that there is not a single patch of forest near the capital but who cares, Rome is going to be new capital soon. So as you can see chopping almost every single tree in my empire was the right choice.

Everything you do in civ has to have a goal. So if you decide to chop it has to be for a reason. Getting rid of a neighbor is a good reason. Not only you are getting a capital but you also secure more land for expansion.

 

[MrFelony]

And you can still build axes out of wood.

peace,
lilnev

not sure what you said made me think of this, but axemen should be allowed to chop forests

 

[oyzar]

not sure what you said made me think of this, but axemen should be allowed to chop forests

That my friend would be what we call overpowered.

Oh and chopping for early settlers and worker is defiantly worth it. I almost allways chop out my first settler.

 

[GenocideBringer]

What?
Assuming ratios between marathon and normal on settlers and chops are the same;
On normal speed:
Settler: 120
Chop (Pre-math): 20
Chop (Post-math): 30
If your city has an ok production, 2 chops will still significantly bring down the cost, especially if maths.
Add Imperialistic, and 2 chops is a whole settler.

So...pre-math, it takes six chops for a settler. I'm giving up 3 health and 6 hammers/turn so I can get a settler out slightly faster.

No thanks. As said before, I usually only chop when I need to place an improvement.

 

[oyzar]

you dont give up the hammers/turn... you don't chop forests if they are the best titles you can work if you cant build improvements of course... I usually chop 1-2 forests for a settler/worker max.

 

[MrCynical]

So...pre-math, it takes six chops for a settler. I'm giving up 3 health and 6 hammers/turn so I can get a settler out slightly faster.

No thanks. As said before, I usually only chop when I need to place an improvement.

OK, you're not giving up hammers unless you're working the forest tiles - and since they rarely have resources their output is lousy. It's rare to be working forest tiles pre-maths (and still rarer that you don't have spare forest anyway). The health bonus is similarly of limited relevance - you usually hit the happiness cap before the health, and hitting the health cap matters far less anyway. OK, I'll have a few less health when I hit the industrial age, but that's about it, and that is utterly trivial compared to the impact of earlier expansion.

 

[Divaythsarmour]

I definitely chop before math. But I limit my choppin to the less valuable squares. When forest squares contain 3 hammer, I leave them. That's almost as good as a mine.

 

[Big Boss Man]

To Chop Or Not To Chop ? That is the question .

Every situation is different , weight should be given to several key factors .

How badly do I want this Unit or Building ? ( Rush Chopping )
The A.I. might finish " My Wonder " first ! ( Insurance Chopping )
We all should decide " Do the Pro's out weigh the Con's " .

I would like to add this . Which forests do I chop first " My Selections " .

I try to save as many forests in the fat cross of each city empire wide .
I try to chop forests closer to enemy lands first . Deny them to rivals .
When chopping I tend to chop hills first , I will mine them one day . After that trees on tiles with spices or slik , where plantations go . Then I check for trees on rivers where a cottage or farm would be better .

Hope this will help somebody !

 

[lilnev]

Well chop the tiles you're planning to work first, obviously. That's either hills or riverside grass. I don't worry too much about health most of the time, but if it looks like it'll be a problem I may try to save 2 or 4 forests. And in that case I'll try to save forests in the overlap of fat crosses of two cities, so they both get the health benefit.

peace,
lilnev

 

[Airefuego]

If all other things are equal (access, distance, terrain etc) I try to chop the centre tiles out of a mass of forest tiles first - slightly increases the chance that forest will grow back. (more forests bordering a bare tile = more chance forest will grow there)

And if forest is up next to jungle, I chop those tiles last if all else is equal - those forests are a buffer against jungle growing out.