Viable Tradition Civs

[Ninal]

Hello all,

Since I am new at this forum I would like to introduce myself shortly before getting into my actual questions. I have been playing civilization since the very first version back in the days when my fathers monitor was still in black and whites. The work you guys have done with this mod is so incredible I don't know how to express myself. Now that I have played this mod for over a year I cannot play vbanilla Civ5 or Civ6 anymore since this mod is so much better. Anyways what I am trying to say is "Thank you so much!"

Back on Topic: viable Tradition civs

I have played and won with all diferent styles on Immortal and lower difficulties. I have also won both a progress-science (Carthage) and an authority-domination victory (Songhai) at Deity level (standard speed, standard seize, no tech trading/brokering).

Now I have tried so many civs with a tradition opener and I just can't seem to win with tradition. My friends also succeed at winning progress deity games but similarly fail at tradition.I know Tradition has recently been buffed but I still can't seem to make it work.
I was wondering what civs you 'experts' think go really well with tradition? So far I have mostly focussed on Arabia, India, Brazil and Marocco.

Would love to pick up some new ideas on how to play tradition and what civs to try out...

 

[CppMaster]

Korea -> Tradition, Artistry, Rationalism, Freedom, Science Victory.
Arabia, Brazil -> Tradition, Artistry, Rationalism or Industry, Freedom, Culture Victory.
Works like a charm.

 

[Ninal]

Thanks for the reply. Those sound like some of the usual suspects. I must really be doing something wrong here...

Do you guys think it is absolutely necessary to wage offensive wars early as Tradition? I normally build some military to defend myself but prefer a mostly peacefull Tall strategy with 3-6 cities. Is that a real option as Tradition?

 

[CppMaster]

Do you guys think it is absolutely necessary to wage offensive wars early as Tradition?

I would only do that if I couldn't place about 3 good cities. Otherwise it's not really good with tradition, because you sacrifice production, which you don't have much and you want to spend it on buildings. It also harms diplomacy which is important for trading and avoiding wars.

I normally build some military to defend myself but prefer a mostly peaceful Tall strategy with 3-6 cities. Is that a real option as Tradition?

Sure, it's standard Tradition play. Just focus on Great People.

 

[neo_arcadia]

The army of Tradition empire should be used for defense. You go taking cities only when you see your enemies are weak and there are city worth taking AS A PUPPET. In my perspective, you don't need to have cities in large number and the policy tree itself can't support too many cities. Traditionally, Tradition is all about small empire and I still think that way. By staying small, you are able to trigger Golden Age earlier, are able to influence other empire faster, are able to tech and gain social policy faster (albeit debatable).

About going to war early, It is a viable strategy but probably not that wise. In the beginning of the game, Tradition capital always are better than Progress and Authority capital. You can access specialist with their big yields of production, culture etc. Best expressed at "putting most of your egg on a basket". By having better production in the early game, you are free to use that production to build units and conquer your neighbor.

The downside of playing Tradition is that you have less source of Gold, faith and probably Paper. Also, your other cities are most likely crappier than Progress or Authority non-capital cities in the late game.

 

[Ninal]

So far my analysis is as follows:

Tradition gives me:
+a capital with very early bonusses and specialist slots
+a growth modifier for capital and secondary cities
+the ability to get early great persons
+a good shot at a religion

Tradition's problems
- not enough production to build the important buildings and enough military
- less gold than progress (so less investments)
- secondary cities that grow but are not as strong as either Authority or Progress
- not enough faith production to spread my religion well
- not enough production and paper to play the CS's well enough
- not enough food to use all the specialist slots, farms and Great Person tiles that I need to (yes even with the bonusses)

So far it really feels like I play a more difficult game when playing tradition. Even after the small buffs it received.

Things I might be doing differently/wrong compared to what I read here:
+ I like peacefull defensive play
+ I might try to grab too much land because I try to grab good resources and I dislike overlap with my cities
+ I might not time my settler stream well. Maybe I settle additional cities too early?

I have read most guides on this forum the last year but I still struggle with Tradition and so do my RL friends. Would love to hear some practical tips on how to do it.

 

[neo_arcadia]

I want to say that "experience is the best teacher" and I think you are ready for it. You have familiarized yourself of how the big picture of Tradition-play is; based on your analysis. But I want to comment on your preference of peaceful defensive play. It is actually the backbone of Tradition play. You use your units to deter any attackers so that you are not losing any pivotal cities. Combined with habit of grabbing too much land, I think you will find Shoshone suitable for you. It's also a good Tradition civilization. And, if you still not sure about the number of cities you should found, I suggest you to limit the number of your settler so that you can have one lux-monopoly and that's it. No more founding city.

 

[chicorbeef]

I think Arabia is the best civ to pick up Tradition on.

Early on, you should be prioritizing Wonders, usually. Stonehenge + Goddess of Beauty is a good combo, particularly as Arabia (Arabia gets Historical Events from building wonders) but also works nicely with India. Petra can be great, Temple of Artemis, if you're playing somebody like Brazil I'd consider Pyramids. The most important (sometimes game-changing) wonder is Hanging Gardens, that wonder is basically tailor made for Tradition and worth rushing Mathematics for.

Then, University of Sankore, Hagia Sophia, Notre Dame, Leaning Tower of Pisa, Porcelain Tower, Louvre/Uffizi, can all be worth going for. You might not grab all of them, but they're all worth going for.

For Faith, I typically pick Ceremonial Burial if I can spread, that belief is wonderful for Tradition. If you're playing, say, Korea or India, Divine Inheritance works well.

You should cycle specialists. You can't work all specialists at once. Focus on Culture/Production early on (so work your Artist/Engineer over your Scientist....if you're rushing Mathematics, you could turn off both your Artist/Engineer to work your Scientist). Time a good growth spurt (like once you have all your farms set, and an Aqueduct/Grocer ready, stop working anything but maybe Culture Specialists and just focus on growing for like 10 turns). The best time in-game is usually when you have Agribusiness/Urbanization, but you can do it earlier with, say, India or if you have HG if you want).

Don't try and work all your Musician/Artist/Writer specialists at once if you don't have the food for it, work 3 Artists then 3 Musicians then 3 Writers or something like that.

If you can take out a neighbour without delaying Wonders/Settlers, do it. There's no downside. However I typically simply don't have the Production/Gold/Supply Cap early on to take on a neighbour, but sometimes, kicking out 4-6 horsemen and taking out your 3 city neighbour is a good strategy.

There are some Tradition photojournals here if you feel like checking them out:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...o-tourism-for-washington-photojournal.631367/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/korea-photojournal-attempt-2.635532/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/deity-arabia-photojournal.635126/

 

[CppMaster]

Tradition's problems
- not enough food to use all the specialist slots, farms and Great Person tiles that I need t

Tradition gives you more food than Progress and Authority. You shouldn't have problem with that.

+ I like peacefull defensive play

That's great for Tradition.

+ I might try to grab too much land because I try to grab good resources and I dislike overlap with my cities

It's better to have defensive border cities than with good resources, because you want to work Specialists more and tiles less. It would be easier to defend and you minimize territorial disputes if your cities are not too far way.

+ I might not time my settler stream well. Maybe I settle additional cities too early?

Settle them ASAP without being punished for that.

 

[tu_79]

Hello all,

Since I am new at this forum I would like to introduce myself shortly before getting into my actual questions. I have been playing civilization since the very first version back in the days when my fathers monitor was still in black and whites. The work you guys have done with this mod is so incredible I don't know how to express myself. Now that I have played this mod for over a year I cannot play vbanilla Civ5 or Civ6 anymore since this mod is so much better. Anyways what I am trying to say is "Thank you so much!"

Back on Topic: viable Tradition civs

I have played and won with all diferent styles on Immortal and lower difficulties. I have also won both a progress-science (Carthage) and an authority-domination victory (Songhai) at Deity level (standard speed, standard seize, no tech trading/brokering).

Now I have tried so many civs with a tradition opener and I just can't seem to win with tradition. My friends also succeed at winning progress deity games but similarly fail at tradition.I know Tradition has recently been buffed but I still can't seem to make it work.
I was wondering what civs you 'experts' think go really well with tradition? So far I have mostly focussed on Arabia, India, Brazil and Marocco.

Would love to pick up some new ideas on how to play tradition and what civs to try out...

Any civ with economic boosts will do. The deal about Tradition is not who you play, but how you do play it.
CrazyG might be able to do a completely peaceful Tradition game. I can't. I need to conquer a neighbour or two and keep most of them as puppets to call it still tall (well, to benefit from Tradition bonuses).

Everything happens at your capital. The other cities are just buffers for your troops. I like to place my two first cities very close to the capital, for sharing tiles, since my capital usually goes to work just especialist in late game, and this allows the secondary cities to have access to fine tiles. And this really helps with gold in early game, as connecting roads are very expensive.

 

[Stalker0]

Also remember that tradition is gets big bonuses to faith and culture early. I generally gain policies faster playing tradition than other styles and generally found first.

Progress ultimately gets more faith after religions are founded but it’s hard to beat traditions +3 early faith for the religion race

 

[CrazyG]

I think attacking someone who is very close to you is a good idea, regardless of social policy choices.

I don't consider Brazil a big tradition civ personally. With tradition, you tend to be very focused on specialists, in general I find it difficult to work unique improvments such as Brazilwood camps. Dutch Polders and Shoshone Encampments are alright because they provide extra food. This is also why I don't really care for tradition Maya

Sharing tiles with your capital is a good idea. The game will usually end before your cities are big enough that overlapping tiles is a problem.

 

[Ninal]

Thanks so much for all the replies! I am glad I finally made an account here after lurking for so long! I have watched all of the photo journals already. Most of them more than once...

I already do cycle through my specialists and go for the right wonders. I do think I spread out my cities too much. I should try and be less greedy and stay smaller. Hopefully that will also help me avoid some wars. I can also try delaying my initial wave of settlers so that I can '' profit' longer from having only a single city with high culture and science output.

I still wonder if it will be enough though. I still feel Tradition is considerably weaker (harder to win with) than the other two trees and on this forum I have seen more posts asking advice on how to play tradition than the other two. Do you guys think Tradition is indeed weaker on deity level? Or is it just as strong but harder to execute?

I will try Arabia again... still looking for other 'real tradition' contenders as well. I mostly focussed on Arabia, India, Brazil and Marocco so far but If I am missing a real tradition civ I am glad to hear it...

 

[crdvis16]

Civs I would personally play as Tradition:

America
Arabia
Austria
Brazil
Egypt
India
Korea

The mind set that really helped me get better with tradition is to view my capital as the only city that really matters with the satellite cities having the purpose of defense via good terrain and securing my monopoly. I also use my satellites to build things like caravans and military to save hammers in the capital.

As others have said, it's also probably better to have your cities at minimum distance and sharing tiles as the capital often isn't going to work all of its good tiles so let the satellites do so. This is especially true of great person improvements which should ideally be placed such that they can be switched between cities as needed.

Tradition/tall is also the play style where I am most likely to use internal food trade routes in order to pump up my capital and make use of all those specialist slots. It's also the playstyle that I am usually most aggressive in pursuing early wonders, especially trying to plan that early great engineering to bulb a specific wonder.

 

[CrazyG]

I will try Arabia again... still looking for other 'real tradition' contenders as well. I mostly focussed on Arabia, India, Brazil and Marocco so far but If I am missing a real tradition civ I am glad to hear it...

Arabia is very, very tradition oriented.

Korea, India, Netherlands, are also good with tradition.

Brazil or Morocco aren't that super tradition examples in my opinion. They can pick tradition, but they don't have to.

 

[CppMaster]

Civs I would personally play as Tradition:

America
Arabia
Austria
Brazil
Egypt
India
Korea

I would add Venice to that list and maybe Ottoman?

 

[crdvis16]

I would add Venice to that list and maybe Ottoman?

Some people go authority venice and puppet the world, but I would personally go tradition probably.

Not sure about the ottomans, though. I don't believe they have a ton of synergy with great people or growth. Maybe the internal trade route bonuses help? They seem like an Authority civ to me just because of the siege foundry, but I haven't played them in their current form so I'm not sure.

CrazyG mentioned the Dutch too which seems reasonable.

 

[Minh Le]

Have anyone tried Assyria Tradition -> Authority. Its fun. Just go around take and raze cities (maybe puppet some) and win science

 

[tu_79]

Worth mentioning that you don't start a game thinking what policy you will do. You must read the map first. If you start next to Songhai, forget about Tradition, you need Authority for survival. If your neighbors are reasonable and the room for expanding is plenty, you'll get better from Progress. Tradition is for those starts with plenty of food around your capital, some production farther and room for 3-6 cities. The hammers you save by not facing early neighbors are spent on your economy so tradition can stay competitive. Also, think that a great people strategy pays very late. All the great works you gather give little yields in the begging, but they stack.

You forgot in your analysis that tradition has much culture. A tradition civ generally stands first in policies. Just remember to settle in fresh water. What you do make of those extra policies is up to you.

 

[Ninal]

Okay I am trying again with Arabia!

I'm not sure how to make and import screenshots here but I can describe my situation:

Turn 89 (650BC)
I Have 3 cities (11, 4 and 4 pops) my monopoly (not unlocked yet) is Lapis Lazuli
I have 5 policies in tradition and 16 techs (all ancients + sailing, writing, mathematics and Masonry)

I have Stonehenge, Petra, Temple of Artemis and Hanging Gardens).
In the game are 3 authority civs (Sweden, Mongolia and Montezuma) and 4 Progress civs (Poland, Ottoman, Korea and Venice). Poland has already finished Progress.

Pantheon goddes of Beauty. This is one of the best starts I have had. The good news is that this turn I can take a religion and I am the first to pick one! I am thinking about Cermonial Burial but am very uncertain about what follower believe to take...

Potential problems are:
I only have 2 archers and a pathfinder to protect my empire. Sweden got cut off from the rest of the map by me and will become angry sooner or later. He only has his capitol though and is by far the weakest AI.
I still need to settle two more cities. I need more builders (I had 2 and building a 3rd now).
Even though I had a good start quite a couple of the progress AI's are keeping up in techs and policies (Poland even surpasses me). And progress will only become stronger later in the game!

I will try and see if I can somehow post a screenshot...