Victory Options

[Donovan Zoi]

This is a discussion about our victory goal. I know that we have had our sights set on a Domination/Conquest victory from the start. However, I feel that the dawn of the Industrial Age is a great time to address this matter again, if only to ensure that victory is still within our grasp.

Are you confident in our progress to Domination victory thus far? Are we in a "can't lose" position following this path? What other victory options could be attainable to us if we choose to alter that path? How do you want this game to play out?

For the record, I believe the only victory option not available to us is Cultural. That leaves:

Conquest
Domination
Histograph
Spaceship
Diplomatic


Please join the discussion.

 

[donsig]

I want to continue our tradition of conquering our neighbors. I do not want to build a spaceship. I'drather not drag this out to a histograph victory. Let us dominate this world and de done with it!

 

[Eklektikos]

I would like to win by Conquest or Domination. We played the spaceship game in the last demogame and that was fine and well, but I have no desire to follow that path again in this game. Additionally, I believe that we would make victory even more uncertain by trying to have it both ways at once. We need to put our full effort into near continuous and sustained military offensives if we are to achieve domination, and not waste time and resources dithering around trying to prepare for space exploration at the same time. I do not see diplomatic victory as a likely or desirable option, and I would consider a histograph victory nothing more than a booby prize.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

Welcome to the discussion, donsig and Eklektikos. Something told me you two would be the first to post in this thread....

While I can see the point of not wanting to follow the path of the last DemoGame, we must keep in mind that we will probably not make any major advances militarily until we get our Panzers. And in order to make the best use of those Panzers, we need to make sure we are the first ones to secure Motorized Transportation.

The only way we are going to do that is by staying competitive in the tech race. Both of you have mentioned getting techs by conquest, but we haven't had any success of that nature since our windfall from the Aztecs.

Lastly, we have only conquered 3 civs so far. Persia has nearly conquered 3 themselves. That leaves 9 more civs to go. In rough math, we are only 25%(3 for 9) of the way there with one of those civs being a giant like us.

All I am saying is we should have a backup plan. I truly believe that plan should be running our wars under Democracy. This will become a much more viable option if we secure Universal Suffrage. Swift, measured attacks against our foes could help us gain ground without experiencing too much war weariness. Democracy would also make other victory goals possible, in the event our Domination goals fell short.

Don't get me wrong. I too would like this game to contain some kind of showdown with Persia. I too may find Conquest/Domination a suitable option once we get Panzers, as long as it's not too late. I am more worried about what we are going to do until then.

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by Donovan Zoi
While I can see the point of not wanting to follow the path of the last DemoGame, we must keep in mind that we will probably not make any major advances militarily until we get our Panzers. And in order to make the best use of those Panzers, we need to make sure we are the first ones to secure Motorized Transportation.

The only way we are going to do that is by staying competitive in the tech race. Both of you have mentioned getting techs by conquest, but we haven't had any success of that nature since our windfall from the Aztecs.

Lastly, we have only conquered 3 civs so far. Persia has nearly conquered 3 themselves. That leaves 9 more civs to go. In rough math, we are only 25%(3 for 9) of the way there with one of those civs being a giant like us.

I do not agree that we need to be the first to get motorized transport in order to have our Panzers be useful. We just need to have alot of Panzers. Some artillery would be nice, too.

I do not mind staying comptetitve in the tech race so long as we do not mess around with democracy. In order to conquer we may well have to raze cities and wipe out entire countries. Democratic peoples do not like those things. It is possible to even take a tech lead under monarchy.

We haven't conquered many civs because of the recent calls for peace and building. We also haven't been able to field a decent army because we are too busy building and rushing universities, temples and courthouses. If we had built markets instead we'd have a much better economy which in turn would help us to do our own research.

 

[Immortal]

We will not win any other method except by war.

Conquest or domination.

 

[Feodor Ardent]

Domination is probably the easiest path to victory we have, but could readily be crocked by our unusually backward infrastructure.

The down side I've always run into with domination victories, is that, quite frankly, they are tedious. The AI has no tactical imagination I've ever been able to discern and most wars get rather boring after the open clashes. You defeat the enemy field army in the first few turns and then methodically peck away at their cities until enough have fallen. I would rather do a civil build-up now so that when we do go for world conquest with our Panzers, we have enough advantage to do so in a dramatic and desicive fashion. Otherwise, the conquest bid turns into a game of Space Invaders.

 

[naervod]

Domination and conquest are the ways to go here. We must be constantly fighting, so we can take over the world ASAP. If all else fails, Histograph would be my other choice.

 

[Cyc]

Histograph is what you get when you're good enough to not lose by the last two, but not good enough to win by the first two. If we go for Spaceship, we'll need a lot of Espionage (of pre-historic German origin ). These covert actions will of course hurt the chances of a diplomatic victory. I don't like either of these and feel we should stick with conquest/domination.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

[dance] [dance] [dance] [dance] [dance]
[dance] [dance] [dance] [dance]






By the looks of things here, we are headed for a long round of Space Invaders, Feodor. Let the acquisition of fully corrupt 1-shield cities begin!

 

[Donovan Zoi]

While I think we are kidding ourselves by thinking the Conquest/Domination is the only way we can win, I cannot ignore the public support for this type of victory.

Tell you what....I will let this discussion thread run for a day or two more, then I will put this up for poll. If it is determined that the public strongly favors keeping our Domination/Conquest goals, then I will cease my misguided attempts to better ourselves and our cities. I will push for the discovery of Communism immediately after we have Industrialization, so that we may enter a government that will allow us to make use of some of the far-reaching cities we will conquer. Keep in mind that while Communism may initially drop commerce and production in cities near our capital, it would be more than offset by increased stats in our now-useless New India cities(and beyond). This would allow us to build something more ambitious in those cities than walls, donsig. Lastly, I would ask your help in determining the bare minimum needed for our cities to function before we focus on nothing but military units for the rest of the game. This will afford us the quickest path to victory if Conquest/Domination were our option.

I am not being sarcastic; I am serious.

However, in the unlikely event that the public wants something else, I will fight tooth and nail to make that happen as well. Even if it means holding my own against future ambushes in the turnchat.

 

[Shaitan]

The amount of corruption in far reaching cities doesn't really matter. Production comes from the heart of the nation. Newly captured territories need only some minor culture to fill out the border gaps.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

Why is everyone so against maximizing ourselves in order to preserve war? Now we can't even maximize ourselves under a warlike structure?

What about to quickly get infantry into these useless cities? Should these as well as our full offense all be provided by our interior?

Listen to me.....you've got me arguing for war now. Honestly, this has all become quite maddening. Someone please throw me a bone and tell me that I have come up with one good idea this term.......

Most of the fun from Civilization comes from watching your cities grow and become useful. Basically what you are saying then, Shaitan, is that we have all that we need we have right now under Monarchy. I don't believe that.

 

[Feodor Ardent]

The infrastructure we have now is not even up to 19th century standards. What are we going to use to build Panzers in 30 turns if we spend all our shields now building horsies to romp around the battered boondocks of Babylon?

 

[Eklektikos]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to concur with Shaitan on this one, DZ. We will be better off with a solid core of productive cities than with the universal level of corruption offered by Communism. Why? Because the cost of building courthouses, police stations etc in all our newly conquered cities will pretty much cancel out their lower individual corruption, while we will no longer have our old heartland of high efficiency, high production core cities to rely upon. Under Monarchy all we'll need to do is rush in the odd Library, Temple and/or marketplace to keep the natives happy, while a steady stream of foot soldiers from the productive core should provide ample defense in the wake of our fastere offensive forces.

 

[Shaitan]

One bone, coming up:

I think you've come up with some great ideas, DZ.

No joke there either, you've proven to be a dedicated and very active Leader. You put a lot of thought and effort into your proposals and are more than willing to compromise or switch plans when public opinion demands it.

Unfortunately some of your plans have met with resistance due to our offensive gameplay style and (apparent) desired victory. No, I don't think we have all of the infrastructure we want at this point. There are definitely other things that we'll want in our productive core. It's the fringe cities that I would not like to see anything invested in. Their purpose is to broaden our territorial reach so we can quickly move more troops down the roads and rails to attack new targets. Other than that they have the same use as any other ICS city - culture, workers, settlers.

Communism in Civ3 just doesn't work well. What you end up with are border cities with marginal production that still take next to forever to build anything and you get the bonus of 50% corruption in your developed production centers.

 

[donsig]

DZ, your best idea was to run for military leader. No offense meant to CivGeneral, but I did vote for you to lead our glorious forces in war. It's a shame you were stuck in domestic.

 

[Zarn]

Originally posted by donsig
DZ, your best idea was to run for military leader. No offense meant to CivGeneral, but I did vote for you to lead our glorious forces in war. It's a shame you were stuck in domestic.

Leave the Domsetic Department alone. DZ is trying to help. I appreciate his help, but we need a strong core and an advanced military. I really don't think that Monarchy, Communism, or Democracy is the answer, but people seem Monarch happy right now.

 

[Feodor Ardent]

Leave the Domsetic Department alone. DZ is trying to help. I appreciate his help, but we need a strong core and an advanced military. I really don't think that Monarchy, Communism, or Democracy is the answer, but people seem Monarch happy right now.

Lets see, there's theocracy, oligarchy, guildocracy, magocracy, klepocracy, crony capitalism, mobocracy . . .

Oh, you favor Jedocracy, I bet. That's either rule by a council of Jedi knights or rule by the clan leader of the Clampetts.

 

[Zarn]

Originally posted by Feodor Ardent
Lets see, there's theocracy, oligarchy, guildocracy, magocracy, klepocracy, crony capitalism, mobocracy . . .

Oh, you favor Jedocracy, I bet. That's either rule by a council of Jedi knights or rule by the clan leader of the Clampetts.

You seem to be leaving out a gov with low war weariness.