Victory Questions

[fdrpi]

I've always had a feeling that the Altar and Mastery victories seemed a bit too "difficult".

It's just that you have to deviate so much from how you might otherwise play to get them. For the Altar, you basically have to devote everything to great prophets from the start. For the Towers, you need to control almost every mana type in the game, not very easy, and requiring a great deal of map control, via conquest or otherwise.

Granted, you can use metamagic (if you can get a free node if not the Amurites) to make things easier, but I still feel the point remains.

I know that you have to adapt your empire building for all games, but here in FFH it just seems a bit extreme for these victories.

What do you think?

 

[TheLazyHase]

I find the tower pretty easy to do. It's my default victory condition when I am not in the right setup to conquer the world. Cultural tend to be problematic because of the huge amount of investment it require, while tower victory require very few setup to do.

I see the Altar victory like the religious diplomacy victory in vanilla : it's a strange strategy, that require special planning from the start but can be very efficient otherwise.For that one yopu do have a point.

 

[clarkcd]

For the Towers, you need to control almost every mana type in the game, not very easy, and requiring a great deal of map control, via conquest or otherwise.

It doesn't really require all that much map control since you only need 4 mana nodes with the Meta Magic you mentioned. Sure if you tried to control them all at once then that would require quite a bit of conquest.

 

[snarko]

Altar is the easiest victory, except perhaps conquest/domination on a tiny or smaller map. It's broken in it's easiness. Just spam priest specialists to get great prophets to make your priest specialists better. It requires some initial investment, as almost everything does, but altar victory gives big benefits once you get enough pieces.

Tower isn't too difficult to get, it's just time consuming. If you know you want to go for tower victory you expand to get mana. Then conquer to get mana if needed. Then build a metamagic node, promote several adepts to metamagic, replace the node with something that help you achieve tower victory. Then just build the towers one after the next. Be careful with the last one, AI will DoW you when you're building it if they are not otherwise preoccupied. Depending on the state of the game defending against so many AIs can be difficult at times.



I feel like your problem with these two victory types is you have to decide to go for them, preferably early. If you decide to go for altar before you even start the game I think you'll be surprised how easy it is. It's not a victory you randomly stumble upon but you don't randomly stumble on a conquest victory either (most of the time).



The most difficult victory imo is culture. Some civs can do it but for all others you really have to focus on it to achieve it within the turn limit (if active) or before someone else has won.

 

[Goodwill]

I find them way too easy too, and disable them both (conquest only victories are why I play). I have to disable them as victory conditions because the benefits are really good, and depending on my civ, I often finish them anyway. The altar especially is awesome to own and not that hard to get.

 

[BobCW]

ToM can actually be accomplished very early, because you can both cash-rush the mini and main Towers and rush them with Soldiers of Kilmorph.


Basic ToM rush plan goes roughly as such:


* Tech to Sorcery, plus each of the four mini-tower techs.

* Secure 4 nodes of any type

* Tech to Arcane Lore (longest step). Run only cash after this point.

* After promoting several mages to metamagic, configure your 4+ nodes so that you can build the Tower of Divination. Complete it however you want, then take Strength of Will.

* Complete the other three towers through a combination of cash-rushing, great engineers, SoK & good-old-fashioned turn-by-turn hammers. Have a metamagic mage + adepts stationed at each node to change them all instantly as soon as you are ready to commence work on a new tower. Remember that you can haste them after they have put a turn of work into a node to get a second node-construction action.

* Begin the ToM. If tech trading is on, sell off your techs for as much gold as you can obtain- this can take quite a few turns off the completion date. If you have a lot of ancient forests, prepare to chop them towards the end of construction to shave a few turns off the final date (each should add 20-30 hammers). If you are in Runes, have every other city send SoK to work on the Tower. Typically you can build it within 10 turns, although you can certainly go faster with proper preparation.




The whole process can be done in a little over 100 turns on quick speed. It's fun the first time, but loses a lot of appeal afterwards.

 

[fdrpi]

It always seemed to me that the appeal of FFH was the journey with the civ you play, not the end result. Still, I feel there should be some additional victory conditions, although I cannot say what they are. Maybe a diplo style victory? That's all I have so far.

 

[arcticnightwolf]

It always seemed to me that the appeal of FFH was the journey with the civ you play, not the end result. Still, I feel there should be some additional victory conditions, although I cannot say what they are. Maybe a diplo style victory? That's all I have so far.

i kinda like the civ-specific victory conditions of Master of Mana ( or i think it is that ) - it gave the game feel of RPness, at least for me

 

[fdrpi]

I would love unique victory conditions. That is perfect for FFH.

I also forgot about the religious victory.

Maybe you there could be a diplomacy victory through the over or under council, but you have to eliminate the opposite alignment.

 

[cypher132]

The Mastery and Altar victories are generally meant to be done in the late game. I haven't actually stuck around long enough to attempt them. I always end up getting restless and just declare war on the person next to me. And then the next, then the next.

 

[Bad Player]

I've always had a feeling that the Altar and Mastery victories seemed a bit too "difficult".

It's just that you have to deviate so much from how you might otherwise play to get them. For the Altar, you basically have to devote everything to great prophets from the start. For the Towers, you need to control almost every mana type in the game, not very easy, and requiring a great deal of map control, via conquest or otherwise.

Granted, you can use metamagic (if you can get a free node if not the Amurites) to make things easier, but I still feel the point remains.

I know that you have to adapt your empire building for all games, but here in FFH it just seems a bit extreme for these victories.

What do you think?

For the altar victory you have to get to the end of the tech tree iirc. Surely getting 5 great prophets by that time is not too hard?

 

[Bad Player]

I would love unique victory conditions. That is perfect for FFH.

I also forgot about the religious victory.

Maybe you there could be a diplomacy victory through the over or under council, but you have to eliminate the opposite alignment.

Yeah, I'd like to see FFH2 with civ specific victory conditions too. Maybe make up a new victory condition for each civ (although conquest would suit Clam of Embers etc).

 

[tribble]

I came up with some civ-specific objectives, with a 5 to 7 player game in mind. Could be used for a "secret mission risk" style of multiplayer game with the standard victory conditions disabled. I still need conditions for the sidar and Luchiurp.

Spoiler :

Amurites: The mana nodes are your inheritance. Control at least one of every type of mana.
Balseraphs: Be not afraid of greatness! Achieve a culture victory
Bannor:Junil commands obedience. Achieve a religious victory with the order.
Calabim: It is only natural that the strong should rule over and feed on the weak. Make at least three of the other players your vassals.
Clan of Embers: Prove to the world that you are more than barbarians. Conquer four civilizations.
Doviello: The hounds of Mulcarn are still to be feared. Maintain the highest score in the game for 100 consecutive turns.
Elohim:Let there be peace on earth and goodwill toward men. Achieve a religious victory.
Grigori:The Gods flaunt the compact in spirit and word. Raze all holy cities.
Hippus: Greed is Good. Acquire 50,000 gold.
Infernal:It is our time now. Achieve a conquest victory.
Khazad: Kilmorph may be generous, but her greatest blessings are not for the unworthy. Control all sources of mithril.
Kuriotatesiversity is our strength. Accept the vassalhood of three civilizations.
Lanun:That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons even death may die. Achieve a religious victory with the Octopus Overlords.
Ljosalfar: Nature is a gift we give to our children. Achieve a religious victory with the fellowship of leaves.
Luchiurp:?
Malakim: The nations must be united. Induce all non-evil civilizations to adopt the "overcouncil" civic.
Mercurians: The wicked shall face judgement for their iniquities. Destroy all non-good civilizations.
Sheaim:Smells like victory. Cast your world spell when the AC is at 100.
Sidar:
Svartalfar:We're not actually all that subtle. Induce all non-good leaders to adopt the "Undercouncil" civic.

 

[fdrpi]

A good place to start tribble. I love the little lore you've written, but they sound like achievements more than victory conditions.

Also love the name.

 

[magzhi]

I came up with some civ-specific objectives, with a 5 to 7 player game in mind. Could be used for a "secret mission risk" style of multiplayer game with the standard victory conditions disabled. I still need conditions for the sidar and Luchiurp.

Spoiler :

Amurites: The mana nodes are your inheritance. Control at least one of every type of mana.
Balseraphs: Be not afraid of greatness! Achieve a culture victory
Bannor:Junil commands obedience. Achieve a religious victory with the order.
Calabim: It is only natural that the strong should rule over and feed on the weak. Make at least three of the other players your vassals.
Clan of Embers: Prove to the world that you are more than barbarians. Conquer four civilizations.
Doviello: The hounds of Mulcarn are still to be feared. Maintain the highest score in the game for 100 consecutive turns.
Elohim:Let there be peace on earth and goodwill toward men. Achieve a religious victory.
Grigori:The Gods flaunt the compact in spirit and word. Raze all holy cities.
Hippus: Greed is Good. Acquire 50,000 gold.
Infernal:It is our time now. Achieve a conquest victory.
Khazad: Kilmorph may be generous, but her greatest blessings are not for the unworthy. Control all sources of mithril.
Kuriotatesiversity is our strength. Accept the vassalhood of three civilizations.
Lanun:That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons even death may die. Achieve a religious victory with the Octopus Overlords.
Ljosalfar: Nature is a gift we give to our children. Achieve a religious victory with the fellowship of leaves.
Luchiurp:?
Malakim: The nations must be united. Induce all non-evil civilizations to adopt the "overcouncil" civic.
Mercurians: The wicked shall face judgement for their iniquities. Destroy all non-good civilizations.
Sheaim:Smells like victory. Cast your world spell when the AC is at 100.
Sidar:
Svartalfar:We're not actually all that subtle. Induce all non-good leaders to adopt the "Undercouncil" civic.

You can steal a few ideas from here:
http://www.masterofmana.com/
This modmod for FFH2 added 2-3 special tasks for each country to win. You just have turn them on in custom game menu.

 

[fdrpi]

There is no information about the stuff in the mod on the website. Makes finding info about the mod rather difficult.