Views from a new player

[kairob]

I have done some more maths, and I think the Governmental should be only -25%, otherwise it would be too esy to achieve > -100% maintenence.
If all the govrnment run stuff gave the same +10% then this would work:

The city in my suggestion (first governmental distric, a thieves guild and a city watch) would have -40% going up to -65% if they built a second governmental quarter?

Other than that I like all your suggestions PL.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

thats a good point Kai.

now we need to link some of the resource benefits to the different sectors.

 

[kairob]

I thought that the Merchents guild could do basic luxury commodities, which the Merchents sector could do basic foodstuff commodities.

For other resources we could have guilds that would only be available with a certain resource.

Goldsmiths guild
Masons Guild
Blacksmiths Guild
Jewlers Guild
Tanners Guild

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

i dont think we should have so many buildings, perhaps a craftmans halls, which grants bonuses to gems, gold, silver, marble. Guild of Tailors, Bonus to silk, cotton, dyes, cow, sheep, and have the copper, iron mithril be benefits from the military quarter?

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

Governmental Quarters - (no resource link)
The Merchants Quarters - (corn, rice, wheat, olives, spices, Bananas)
City Defences - (possibly marble?)
Naval Quarters - (fish, clam, Crab, Pearl, whale)
Industrial Quarter - (marble, coal)
Military Quarters - (copper, iron, mithril)
Financial Quarters - (no resource link)
Religious Quarters - (Incense)
Magic - Science - (no resource link)
Sewage Systems - (no resource link)

Tailors Guild - (silk, cotton, dyes, cow, sheep)
Guild of Jewellers - (Gold, silver, gems, brightstone)

 

[Masada]

<--- thought i executed the Financial sector...

Governmental Quarters - (no link...)

The Merchants Quarter - will deal with food? thats fines

City Defences - Stone, Marble (more probably nothing could just be built faster)

Naval Quarter now renamed to Dockyards and moved into a Commercial role... no longer military focused (fish, clam, Crab, Pearl, whale)

Industrial Quarter - (coal, copper, iron, mithril)

Military Quarter - (Grants promotions based on access to Copper, Iron, Mithril and Coal)...

Magic Science - (incense)

Sewage Quarter...?... where did that come from?....



Now onto more pressing matters:

+1 Gold per Merchants Quarter will send you broke. It is not enough and will not help at all... its worse than trade routes in real terms...

Follow the money in a normal game of civ...

2 Economies... Cottage Spam and Specialist

Cottage Spam all the money comes from Cottages... a paltry +1 gold is not equal to even a modestly built up Cottage...

Specialist... all the money comes from Cottages in the Capital... +1 gold is a laughing matter when your single city can generate 500+ towards the end of the game...

Think of a size 15 city... sit yourself on 70% science which is reasonable... and wonder why the hell you would want to get 3 gold from a financial quarter at tier 3... its not worth it... increase it to 1-3-5 and you get 8... thats still nothing...

Give it a 25%-25%-25% increase... otherwise your going to send people broke...

Next item of important buissness...

stop playing around with City Maintenance... i know of no mod which feels the strain to compulsively manipulate that little bit of core mechanics and i know exactly why...

It wont work and it will be a gigantic pain in the ass.

 

[Masada]

I was going to go into a mode of pointing out silly use of logic...

Instead i think im just going to make us have a nice look at the world before about 1750...

From "The Birth of Plenty" William J. Bernstien

10,000BC to 100AD population growth was a pretty clipping 0.036%

from 100AD to 1750 the growth rate was 0.05% per year... it only reached greater than 1% in the early 20th century

Now for more interesting things: Malthus created a model to explain human growth in wealth called the Malthusian trap.. whereby humans reproduce faster than agriculture can produce food...

ie human growth is exponential whereas agricultural growth is linear...

so people's wealth on average does not increase...

So this means that per captia GDP increase were pretty close to 0...

between AD1 and AD1000 there was no more than a doubling or tripling of per capita GDP..

compared to 172 years after 1820 there was a 10 fold increase in GPD per capita in the UK and 20 fold increase in the US...

That tells us a few things ill leave you to mull over...

Now as a further aside:

By 1500 only 1% of Europes population lived in cities of more than 50,000... and only a further 6% lived incities of over 10,000... 90% of Europe were farmers..

In Asia... which at the time was more advanced technology wise... it was much closer to a 100% than in Europe.

But simply speaking Absolutism is terrible for economic growth...

Feudalism stunted economic growth... the basic requiremens for economic growth...

Property Rights, Scientific Method, Capital and Communications were damaged by Absolutism...

Peasants belonged to their lord... Science was stunted, Capital markets were stunted by high interest and communications was stunted by fuedal lords demanding payments... etc et al

More government in goverments which have totalitarian backgrounds is about best way to derail your economy... and screw your nation up

In actual fact government until the birth of the idea of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness were destructive.. so we need to hold that close to our hearts that government which can imprison you, steal your money, does not operate an indipendant judiciary, respect property rights, intellectual freedom, religous freedom and intellectual property are not likely to suceed terribly well...

Point in case the greatest state in Europe for 200 years with regards to growth was the Dutch Republic... despite being small and weak etc... because its government respected some not all of the above... it thrived.. whereas big totalitarian states collapsed.. ie the Habsburg Empire...



Now onto some interesting things that are not just abstractly related to the mod and the limitations of civ:

Things like the Medici bank in Italy were not really banks... they were more of an insurance company... the bulk of the "loans" they made were really just insurance deals against shipping...

Industry as in a rudimentry steam engine are amazing...

Man and mechanical pump: Sustained Horse Power 0.06
Man and winch: HP 0.08
Ass: HP 0.20
Mule: HP 0.39
Ox: HP 0.52
Draft Horse: HP 0.79
Steam Engine: .... a great deal more...

Now as an aside: Horses in the Ancient World were inferioir to Medieval Horses in almost every respect... 2000 years of selective breeding sees to that... Medieval horses and today's horses are vastly different.. etc works with all domestic animals..


All this might seem irrelevant... but it shows the massive differences in thinking that now exist... ie applying our modes of thinking and logic to history of this world doesnt work... applying to Warhammer will likewise not work terribly well...


We just need to keep an open mind and not say... Banks but there were Banks in the Medieval World... etc... well yes... but were they common can they be represented in all civs... no... and in warhammer that is the same... ie Banks dont exist terribly well in the Empire... since the Sigmarite Church sees it as heresy...

Do undead zombies need banks...?

Do walking talking lizards use banks... most probably not...

Do Dark Elves use banks... they do lend money... but banks wouldnt work in a civ that doesnt give a thought to cheating, stealing and lying...

etc... look through the looking glass

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

*rolls eyes at masada's rant*

its not a sewage quarter, just an upgradable sewer system that boosts health. (3 buildings)

you were the one to suggest a financial sector, remember?

i thought you had to play with mainenance on new buildigns or they are free to run? if thats not the case then we should scrap the +5% maintenence costs, but keep the +x% bonuses for governmental scetors etc.

+25% gold at each merchant quarter is good then. i accept that

lastly, remember i said the financial stuff will all need NAME CHANGES? what if we rename the Merchants quarter to the Agricultural sector (farming etc is a big thin in feudal societies) and change financial to merchant

 

[Arexack_heretic]

financial quarter no.

finances would be either in the governmental (free)sector as tax-offices etc or as banks in the merchants quarter. remember: go where the money is.\

--

Maybe some sectors could enhance each other too?
ie have both and get a bonus or can build a special shared guild.
seamstresses come to mind as a slums/crafters combination.

Manufacturing/refining could also give new resources (cloth/steel/dwarven bread/etc) (Iron ore is only nice in a city with a forge or smelter.)

 

[Masada]

lol... last time i checked buildings didnt cost money... but as i have said before maintenance is not a good thing to play with...

I think we should keep health buildings ie you sewer idea seperate... because it might be advantageous to keep health buildings slightly distant since health seems to be the primary impediment to getting large cities in the mod atm...

We should probably keep to what we have minus the financial quarter and see what we need to add on later

A list of the buildings we have removed from the conventional mod and whats left might help us decide if we need anymore quarters

Funnily enough Agricultural changes were not terribly important... rant comes into play "Malthus created a model to explain human growth in wealth called the Malthusian trap.. whereby humans reproduce faster than agriculture can produce food..." ie i dont think improved agricultural methods mattered much... the best time for farmers in the middle ages was after a great big plague.. ie smaller population of farmers and more to go around... since with a shortage of labour wages would rise... until people made to many people and they would fall...

I dont mind keeping government reducing maintanence costs (even if that is kind of silly) but increasing maintenance costs and fiddling with them to much is going to be annoying to say the least.

@AH Govermental taxation took the form of tarrifs and restrictions on trade... they killed the generation of wealth... they probably contributed to a net decline against state incomes

And banks i dont think are needed or terribly relevant... they should be balanced out by changes to the merchants quarters

@PH another reason why we dont want to many is the fact that you can only build 3 quarters... diversity is fine but to much might play merry heck on balance... and since there quarters.. shouldnt there be 4 3 limits on guilds is good but maybe we could have 2 quartes available to be built at pop 1? etc

@AH the second part of you idea is interseting and i was toying with it.. but it might be a tad difficult to impliment and/or balance... civ only really works with raw materials... manafactured goods just dont work in the model of the game terribly well

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

the idea of manufactured goods could get too complicated, but it would be an awsome idea for wonders like the Seuiddocks (Sp?) or great Bazzar

i was thinking 'Districts' would be better than quarters. because there are way for then 4 quarters her

@ Kai: dont worry about masada, hes a Politician in the making

 

[Masada]

You can ignore alot of what i say... but my reccomendations have a funny habbit of panning out to realitively accurate...

I dont mind a name change to Districts

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

Ok, here are more changes / additions. there are quite a few

Governmental District

Spoiler :

Governmental District level 1, 2 &3
-20% maintenance each

Lords Court
-20% maintenance
+1happyness

Office of Levees
-15% unit upkeep
-2 happiness

Prison Sector
+20% maintenance
-10% chance of revolt
+2 happiness

Palace Gardens (Capital only)
+4 Culture, +25% Culture

Merchant District

Spoiler :

Merchant District Lv1, 2 and 3
+25% gold each
Level 2, also +50% trade Routes
Level 3, also +25% food Stores

Farmers Market
Requires Merchent District Lv 1
+50% stored food
+1 Health for bananas, corn, wheat, rice, olives, cows, sheep, pigs.

Luxuries Market
+1 Happyness from Gold, Silver, Gems, Spices
+2 Merchants

Trading Houses
+5% gold for brightstone, ivory, dyes, silk,
+50% trade routes
+2 Merchants

City Defences

Spoiler :

City Defences 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6
+20% City Defence Each
And +1 hammer to stone and marble at lvl 1

City Watch
Requires City Defence 1
+2 Espionage Points
-25% Maintenence +2 Happiness

Spies Guild
Requires City Defence 2
+4 Espionage
+25% Espionage

Assassins Guild
Requires City Defence 3
+8 Espionage Points
+50% Spy Interception Chance
-50% chance of revolt

Garrison
Requires City Defence 4
+25% city defence
+1 Happiness from fortified units

Wharf District

Spoiler :

Wharf District 1, 2 & 3
1 = +1 food on water, +25% trade routes from water.
2 = +1 commerce on water
3 = +1 commerce on water

Guild of Fishmongers
Requires Wharf District 1
+1 Health from fish, clams, crabs, whale

Traders Guild
Requires Wharf District 2
+1 Trade Routes
+75% trade routes from water.
+50% Income from trade routes
+1 Happiness from pearls, whale

Guild of Shipwrights
Requires Wharf District 3
+1 hammer on water
Ships get +2 Exp

Industrial District

Spoiler :

Industrial District 1,2 & 3
+25% hammer

Metalworkers Guild
Requires Industrial District 1
+1 hammer from copper, iron, mithril and coal,
+25 Work-rate for workers

Builders Guild
Requires Industrial District 2
+25% Faster Buildings
(can rush buildings at the cost of population?)

Engineers Guild
Requires Industrial Quarters 3
+25% hammer production
Siege Weapons +2 Exp

Military District

Spoiler :

Military District level 1:
+2 EXP to units built
+10% unit production speed
Military District level 2:
+1 EXP to units built
+10% unit production speed
Military District level 3:
+1 EXP to units built
+10% unit production speed
+1 happiness from garrisoned units.

at each level of military district, the city has the option to build 1 of the following sectors (need better names):

Soldiers Guild:
free combat 1 promotion to melee units
+2 EXP to melee units

Guild of Marksmen:
Free city defence 1 promotion to ranged units
+2 EXP to Archer units

Riding Academy:
Free Flanking Promotion to mounted units
+2 EXP to Mounted units

Guild of Siege Engineers:
Free Barrage 1 promotion to Siege units
+2 EXP to Siege units

Seafarers Guild: (on a coastal square only)
Free Navigation promotion to naval units
+2 EXP to naval units


Guild of Beast Tamers:
Free 'Battle Trained' promotion (+15% strength, +immune to fear)
+2 EXP to Beastial units

Magic District

Spoiler :

Magic District Lv 1, 2 & 3
+25% Science

Aprentices Guild
Requires Magic District 1
+2 Experience to Mages

Alchemist Guild
Requires Magic District 2
+2 free Sages , +2 Unhealthiness

Mages Guild
Requires Magic District 3
+2 Experience to Mages, +4 Science, Mages built 25% faster. +1 unhappyness

Non distric buildings:

Health Buildings

Spoiler :

Sewer
+2 health

Aqueduct
+2 health

Infirmary
+2 health

Culture Buildings

Spoiler :

Waystone
+1 Culture

Theatre
+2 culture
+2 Artist
+25% culture

Coliseum,
+4 Culture,
+2 happiness,
+1 EXP to land units

Temple
???

Monastery
???

Cathedral
???

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

well, ive made a start on implementing the districts and guilds. so far the merchants district and Wharf Districts are complete.

 

[Deon]

Have you already been thinking about districts' link to the tech tree, or just made just disctricts only (as buildings)?

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

i havent thought about the tech links yet. ive only been making the districts as buildings.

any suggestions? (we should work off the in game tech tree for now, as i suspect that the one we will be using for a while still )

 

[Deon]

Ideas are ... But they should be kinda... sorted in my head .
So I will make more buttons, then sleep and then I'll tell you something specific .

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

ok, you deserve a rest thanks for those buttons

 

[Arexack_heretic]

Public baths

--
I think a temple district would be better then a 'cultural' district, never heard of that before.

Maybe each level increases number of temples/cathedrals/monasteries allowed in the city (of different faiths).

 

[Deon]

Idea about "cultural" district.
Yeah it's strange to call so...
There're 2 kind of buildings which provide culture:
1) arts, creativity (obelisks and statues, theatres, museums, ...)
2) spirituality (shrines, temples, monasteries, ...)

(1) -> plaza
(2) -> temple disctrict