Virusmonster's optimal strategy at Deity difficulty for a huge map

[Qitai]

I agree 100%... nothing wrong with regenerating the start. I do it all the time. Deity is hard enough, no point in wasting time with a bad (or so-so) start. I suspect everyone who has posted a deity win to HOF needed to regenerate until they got a great start.

Hang in there... if you can work up a good strategy for deity huge maps (under HOF rules), we will all benefit from it.

It is possible to win without a great start. But then, if you are submitting a HOF entry, then you definately want to have one. Why have anything less if you are in a compeition.

 

[VirusMonster]

Hang in there... if you can work up a good strategy for deity huge maps (under HOF rules), we will all benefit from it.

Thanks for recognizing what I am trying to accomplish. Without feedback, I would not be able to perfect the strategy, so ty all for the comments as well.
If you win HOF with this build, don't forget to mention me in your write-up

 

[Qitai]

Target finding has been actually easy for me, because you can guess from the direction their scouts are moving the location of their initial base.

How much experience do you get per killing a scout ? Do you have any figures? If you gain 2 experience, you could upgrade cover before attacking the city. Good idea to kill the scout on the way for the experience, but you won't be able to capture worker unalarmed. It will hide inside the city. I prefer to capture early worker and fortify near the city.

Scouts direction can be misleading at times depending on map structure. I choose Huge Lake low sea (just to have more land and fun). I have been mislead in concluding to move in a certain direction several times. Just my experience in using this to conclude where they may be. I still use this information though since it is still good information to use.

Well, it wasn't killing scout, so you mistook me. I declare on worker capture too. So, this step is the same. The addition is that the quechua hang around a bit to pillage and also attract them to attack my quechua to gain experience. Of course, a wandering scout who happen to pass by after war declaration is an immediate target as well since attacking a scout is worth 2 XP. (Side remark: I had actually loss my first quechua once to a wandering scout at 93++%)

Anyway, just want to highlight again that I am not saying that the tactic will not work, but it will work better with some fine tuning to make it more stable and thus more viable as a standard strategy for non-reloaders.

P.S. HOF rule states no reloading. So, respecting the one hour advise is useless if you are reloading.

 

[jafink]

I was shocked at your comment at waiting an hour and then reloading. Are you aware that this is not satisfying the HOF rules. This only makes it so that they will not suspect you of reloading.

 

[VirusMonster]

I don't understand the HOF rules. Can someone please explain me how they detect after a 1 hour play session the fact I reloaded the beginning of the turn where I lost my quechua to an archer. If they can't detect, it means many can cheat this way.

It might true that in the spirit of the HOF rules, you should not save/reload at all, but for many of the HOF entries, I am very much doubtful whether the submitters sticked to the spirit of HOF rules. I am just against the illision everyone is trying to create that no one does save/reloading. Many do.

The decision is yours, my strategy works both with reloading and without reloading Do whatever gives you most satisfaction.

 

[VirusMonster]

P.S. HOF rule states no reloading. So, respecting the one hour advise is useless if you are reloading.

How do they detect it? They don't, so if you are not gonna abuse it many times, you might do it a few times

I am so evil.

 

[DaviddesJ]

I am very much doubtful whether the submitters sticked to the spirit of HOF rules. I am just against the illision everyone is trying to create that no one does save/reloading. Many do.

Just because you post many times that you like to cheat, that doesn't prove that there are many other people who like to cheat.

There's no tangible prize for the HOF. People who cheat will know that they cheated. That's enough to take away their satisfaction. And it's working. In order to feel good about your own accomplishments, you want to claim that everyone else cheats, to justify your own cheating. But that doesn't make it true.

 

[VirusMonster]

You can read more to learn my views on the topic of save&reloading.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4020924

I wished you made a comment on the article itself tough.

I don't think save&reloading here and there to win a fight where you already have higher odds is a cheat.

 

[A_Turkish_Guy]

If you win HOF with this build, don't forget to mention me in your write-up

dont worry..you will get it.. ..

 

[DaviddesJ]

I wished you made a comment on the article itself tough.

You won't get people to have much interest in your ideas unless you change your attitude about cheating.

 

[VirusMonster]

dont worry..you will get it.. ..

Thank you the +500k points HOF winner for confirming my strategy

You won't get people to have much interest in your ideas unless you change your attitude about cheating.

My attitute and my strategy are 2 different things. You can choose whichever you like; none, only one, or both I don't want to change my views to make my stategy more popular. If you don't like my attitude on save&reloading, try to understand why I have such an opinion first. I explained it in detail on the HOF forum save&reloading discussion.

 

[Oggums]

I guess I'm just not seeing any particular strategy here, outside of the standard,

1. Quechua Rush
This has been discussed many times over since the game came out, back in...October? Crank out quechuas and head straight for the enemy, first stealing workers, then defending and getting promotions while waiting for quechua #2 and #3, and then taking the city.

If you showed us what to do next with those cities, and how to pull that into a win, then maybe you'd be onto something. But honestly, all you have here is a very wordy version of "Quechua Rush." I think you could have just used those two words and gotten the exact same point across.

2. Reloading
As has already been mentioned, no strategy is going to get any support if this is an integral part.

 

[VirusMonster]

I guess I'm just not seeing any particular strategy here, outside of the standard,

1. Quechua Rush
This has been discussed many times over since the game came out, back in...October? Crank out quechuas and head straight for the enemy, first stealing workers, then defending and getting promotions while waiting for quechua #2 and #3, and then taking the city.

If you showed us what to do next with those cities, and how to pull that into a win, then maybe you'd be onto something. But honestly, all you have here is a very wordy version of "Quechua Rush." I think you could have just used those two words and gotten the exact same point across.

Let's say I fine tuned the quechua rush strategy. I have added many tips to make it a viable option under deity huge map play.

This link,http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=162026, is also a quechua rush thread, but I added new stuff on top of it or combined existing tips into one big basket. I think the quechua factory base setup is an original idea itself.

Strategy works under HOF rules too, but then, you need 2quechua per archer + 1 quechua when you attack.

Oggums, I don't think you read the article entirely. I added part 2 where I discuss what to do with those cities until 600BC and how to turn your advantage into a strong midddle-game. I did not write the after 600BC part, because there are already great articles in the forums about what to do at that point. Perhaps, I should have written until 1000AD, but I am too lazy to write anymore.

I also don't suggest, as you implied, "declaration of war first, followed by waiting for the quechuas to arrive". I give an exact date for declaration of war, 3505BC, just when the enemy capital grows to 3 size. If you declare war earlier, the AI might produce the 3rd archer.

I play tested this strategy many times to perfect it, so people can try with ease

 

[Oggums]

You're right, I didn't see the second post you added.

Regardless, have you actually won a game yet, after a start like that? You don't have anything in part 2 there that's past the BC era. The hard part is figuring out what to do with all those cities (maintenance costs, defense, keeping up in techs etc.) and pulling it all together to win the game. That's what I'd be interested in. You've only illustrated what I consider to be the easy part, which is gaining territory with a heavy military opening.

What I'm trying to say is that you've skipped the most important part...the part where you actually win with this sort of opening.

 

[DaviddesJ]

If you don't like my attitude on save&reloading, try to understand why I have such an opinion first.

I understand why and I think it's colossally stupid. You think you should cheat because the game is hard at high difficulty levels. Of course, it's made hard on purpose: that's what makes it "high difficulty". If everyone were to start cheating, we would just have to give the AI even bigger handicaps, to compensate. What's the point of that? It's like whining that it's too hard to high-jump over the 7 foot bar, so we should give all of the competitors a jetpack to assist them. But then everyone can easily clear the 7-foot bar, so we have to raise it to 10 feet, and now everyone has to have a jetpack and we're back to square one.

You also think you should cheat because other people might cheat and they can't necessarily be caught. Big deal. They, and you, are only cheating yourselves. If we were giving away million dollar prizes, we would need better enforcement. As it is, we know that people can play honestly or dishonestly, and those who play honestly can take pride in their accomplishments, and those who play dishonestly will know that they cheated. Which is why you keep trying to come up with excuses for cheating. But it won't work.

 

[VirusMonster]

You're right, I didn't see the second post you added.

Regardless, have you actually won a game yet, after a start like that?

Umm to be honest, not yet. I decided to start a real HOF game with the same tactic.

You don't have anything in part 2 there that's past the BC era.

True

The hard part is figuring out what to do with all those cities (maintenance costs, defense, keeping up in techs etc.) and pulling it all together to win the game.

I totally agree

That's what I'd be interested in. You've only illustrated what I consider to be the easy part, which is gaining territory with a heavy military opening.

What I'm trying to say is that you've skipped the most important part...the part where you actually win with this sort of opening.

You are right, I left the most important part for you guys to figure out Check out hendrickzoon's posts or other good players(i.e. A_Turkish_Guy) who submitted for HOF. You can also follow the links under my post #1. They have more answers to help you at the middle game phase. I never claimed to have all the answers.

My biggest problem was to get a good start at deity because AI settles just too fast around my borders. I think I solved it and decided to share it.

After trying many other races at deity difficulty but failing to get a good start, I think this tactic with Incas is the best beginning one can pull of on a huge map. Just follow my gameplan closely, the time estimation of the events are pretty accurate. When you declare war, don't let them build up a 3rd archer inside their city. The time span between war declaration and city capture & civilization wipe out has to be really short.

I would be interested to hear how you continue after 500BC. I am also struggling to balance diplomacy at that stage.

 

[VirusMonster]

I understand why and I think it's colossally stupid. You think you should cheat because the game is hard at high difficulty levels. Of course, it's made hard on purpose: that's what makes it "high difficulty". If everyone were to start cheating, we would just have to give the AI even bigger handicaps, to compensate. What's the point of that? It's like whining that it's too hard to high-jump over the 7 foot bar, so we should give all of the competitors a jetpack to assist them. But then everyone can easily clear the 7-foot bar, so we have to raise it to 10 feet, and now everyone has to have a jetpack and we're back to square one.

You also think you should cheat because other people might cheat and they can't necessarily be caught. Big deal. They, and you, are only cheating yourselves. If we were giving away million dollar prizes, we would need better enforcement. As it is, we know that people can play honestly or dishonestly, and those who play honestly can take pride in their accomplishments, and those who play dishonestly will know that they cheated. Which is why you keep trying to come up with excuses for cheating. But it won't work.

I don't like the wording you use for save&reloading. In my opinion, it is not cheating. Only under HOF rules, it is called cheating. When Firaxis shipped the game, they did not incluse anything about save&reloading being a cheat.

Ok, I just explained superslug, the head of HOF staff, my whole opinion on the matter. You can read posts #43,#46, and #50 at the following discussion in the HOF forums. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168964

I don't buy the whole honor code talk either. You can enjoy the game in whatever way you like.

But I %100 agree with you that if I were to beat Deity difficulty without any save/reloads, I would get more personal satisfaction than I would do by save/reloading. Thus, can you please check out the strategy and tell me what your experience has been after around 1000BC-500BC? I am still confused how to develop from that point forward.

 

[DaviddesJ]

I don't like the wording you use for save&reloading.

That's ok with me. You don't have to like it.

I agree that the notion of cheating is entirely subjective. E.g., there's also nothing written on the box that says, "Using a hex editor to modify the save file so that you start with tanks when everyone else has warriors, is considered cheating." So maybe it's not. You decide for yourself.

But it's pretty clear what the consensus is. Most people think it's dumb to save and reload, because it just gives the human player a big advantage that the AI doesn't have, thus requiring that the AI get even greater handicaps to make the game challenging. And the necessary handicaps are already annoyingly large, so no one wants to make them even larger.

And, in order to compare games between players, it's necessary that everyone play the same way: if one player reloads losing battles while another doesn't, that's a huge advantage, making any comparison meaningless.

So most people play in one way. You can play any other way that you want. You just can't compare the results of your games to those of other people's games. And any online discussion of your games, which you try to start, will inevitably be dominated by discussion of how you play, rather than of your strategy. The only ways to avoid that are to follow the same rules of play that everyone else does, or to find a different community of players who play like you do.

 

[VirusMonster]

The only ways to avoid that are to follow the same rules of play that everyone else does, or to find a different community of players who play like you do.

Or to convert everyone to think like I do

Ok, I admit this strategy started out with save&reloading, but is now good to go even under the HOF rules. I made it much less luck dependent. You need extra unexperienced quechuas to capture the cities and you can easily build them fast enough at your quechua factory.

 

[VirusMonster]

Btw, I am changing the article slightly here and there based on our discussion we had so far, don't be so judgemantel about what you first read 2-3 days ago. Reread it if you can. I tried to make the article less luck dependent overall.