Virusmonster's optimal strategy at Deity difficulty for a huge map

[Thomas G.]

You can read more to learn my views on the topic of save&reloading.

I don't think save&reloading here and there to win a fight where you already have higher odds is a cheat.

Sorry but I didn't read the other link, but this last sentence is a bit of a give-away, isn't it? Higher odds should mean win...well in that case every time you attacked at lower odds and WON, you should reload. Because you were expected to lose. The chance to lose when attacking with high odds is very annoying when it happens to you...but what about the time your poor lone archer beat off 2 axemen and saved your Civ? Or the "suicide" catapult who managed to kill of the toughest defender (in addition to casing the expected collateral damage)? And so on.

History has seen many such examples of units winning the day despite being heavily outgunned. Rodimtsev's Guards division attacking at Stalingrad. The thin red line in the Crimean war. The 300 Spartans who held off a vast Persian force at Thermopylae (okay they lost in the end...). The 20'th Maine rgt. at little round top.

As a commander you could succed by gambles and reckless moves (kinda like Hitler did) but to assure victory even Sun Tzu wrote something like "A losing general will make his dispositions, and then engage the enemy and seek victory. The winning general will first assure victory, then engage the enemy"
If you like to win, be like Gen. Mongomery, and do not attack until you have overwhelming superiority. If this cannot be done, try the reckless approach. But do pay the consequences if you fail.
(incidently, Monty did fail at Arnhem despite having what he deemed superiority, but that's how the odds (and bad intel) can work out.)

I'm not an expert player yet, and I have just played for fun against deity. For testing purposes you could use it, but never in the way suggested in the quote (I SHOULD have won that...)

How frustrating wouldn't it be if the game crashed every time you won at <15% odds...the game's way of reloading...

 

[VirusMonster]

Yea, yea Our company is on vacation and will be back for discussions about save&reloading.

I am interested how the new HOF winner scored over 300k points. I would like to read his writeup asap. Until then, I guess this strategy is the best you can have to beat a huge deity map.

 

[Oggums]

But you haven't beat it yet!

 

[VirusMonster]

yep still did not beat, but I am confident that an early quechua rush is better than a late axeman rush at deity.

Maybe, I am wrong and our new HOF winner will explain how it is possible to do it with a normal build.

 

[VirusMonster]

He use Catherine and played version 1.52. His game time is extremely long tough 76 hours, you gotta be kidding me.

 

[VirusMonster]

I just looked up his saves.

His strategy was to produce some settlers in the beginning, followed by some warmongering at around 2000BC. I assume he tried an axeman rush.

Cossacks enabled him to double his land mass between 550AD and 1100AD. He went quick for military tradition.

 

[Oggums]

Right, nab all that territory after you can actually afford it.

That's exactly why I question this strategy. With such a huge map, and taking so much land so early, I think you will be out-tech'd and then overrun by one of the more distant civs, before you can finish. But don't get me wrong, I do wish you good luck in your endeavor.

 

[Mutineer]

Well, in my opinion 2* number of archers + 1 will not garanty win.

I am one's did not take a city with 0 defence and 2 archers with 5 city riders 1 axes.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Well, in my opinion 2* number of archers + 1 will not garanty win.

Maybe, but this isn't a big deal for some purposes---if you play the first 50 turns, and your initial attack fails, you can just try a new start.

 

[VirusMonster]

Right, nab all that territory after you can actually afford it.

That's exactly why I question this strategy. With such a huge map, and taking so much land so early, I think you will be out-tech'd and then overrun by one of the more distant civs, before you can finish. But don't get me wrong, I do wish you good luck in your endeavor.

I am afraid you might be right I played a dozen of test games under 1.61.003 mod, so what happens is the cities you capture are rarely good commerce cities(you need commerce cities to support your army & research), and I am left struggling very badly once I have 3 cities captured.

Very important is to capture the cities only once they have grown to size 3 or even 4 preferably, because only than can the city commerce generation counter the increased upkeep costs. Whenever I capture a city of size 2, it takes very long until it grows, thus causing a lot of commerce problems.

The problem is that the AI decides to produce a settler at their capital instead of growing to size 3. I would rather wait and capture their city at population 3, than capturing it at 2. Some cities also have very poor commerce land around them, thus capturing them can't balance the increased upkeep costs.

If there is a way for this tactic to work (I am also not sure whether this tactic works anymore ), you need to delay capturing of your cities until 1) they grow to size 3 or 4 preferably 2) until they have cottages & or other nice commerce improvements up around their land.

 

[VirusMonster]

Well, in my opinion 2* number of archers + 1 will not garanty win.

I am one's did not take a city with 0 defence and 2 archers with 5 city riders 1 axes.

True, sometimes they don't, but you have to be ultra unlucky. You could try massing extra quechuas first, thus giving more time the AI to grow their cities, and then attack with extra quechuas.

But I make sure I attack the archers before 1) no walls have been built 2) no barracks has been built such that no archer gets city garrison promotion.

I have no problems capturing cities with only +20% cultural defense. Real problem is capturing cities that are not worth it.

 

[Kalleyao]

I wished you made a comment on the article itself tough.

You won't get people to have much interest in your ideas unless you change your attitude about cheating.

If you dont have anything to say about the topic its off topic, stop posting. We don't need your offensive comments.

 

[DaviddesJ]

If you dont have anything to say about the topic its off topic, stop posting. We don't need your offensive comments.

If you don't have anything either to say about the topic then keep posting. We love your offensive comments.

 

[VirusMonster]

If you don't have anything either to say about the topic then keep posting. We love your offensive comments.

Both defensive and offensive comments are welcome. I can take some critics, have no problem with it.

Man, my 6 quechuas died to 2 fortified archers on a hill/capital, I wanna cry. I will regenerata the map again (prolly 100th time today). There should be a get me a "plains/hill" start/regenerate map buttom for this strategy to work out "plains/hill" starts are pretty rare.

 

[godotnut]

@VirusMonster:

"peaceful builder tactics never catch up on the AIs advantage"

All of my HOF cultural victory wins on Deity (three on the Beta HOF, one on the new one) have been totally peaceful builder wins.

 

[VirusMonster]

@VirusMonster:

"peaceful builder tactics never catch up on the AIs advantage"

All of my HOF cultural victory wins on Deity (three on the Beta HOF, one on the new one) have been totally peaceful builder wins.

Can you provide links to your writeups please?

Also, are you sure you tried to win on a huge map? Smaller map are less of a problem even at deity. I am trying to beat a huge map.

So, I managed to get a very good start yesterday, played until 1000BC with a great start, but I delayed capturing cities until they grew size 4. Only the first 2 cities I captured were size 3 and they were great commerce cities. I razed cities that had too much jungle around them and only kept the best ones.

Also, I figured that you can most likely trade plantation luxury resources, thus you should go first for CoL courthouse construction, followed by mathematics for increased chopping. After courthouses are chopped, you can take a few more cities and try getting catas.

 

[VirusMonster]

I updated the article again based on my multiplayer experience. I am planning to write-up a detailed game log from a recent quechua rush game, but this time with HOF rules on. Strategy works fine for the first 3 cities, assuming both cities are captured at 3 populations. The 4th, 5th and henceforth cities should be let to grow size 4. If you can capture an ivory resource on the way, you will beat the axeman stacks easily even after quechuas become obsolote.

 

[godotnut]

Hey VirusMonster,

I gave the Quecha rush, combined with my cultural strategy a go. After a couple tries, I came up with a 1550 Deity win on a small Pangea map, which I submitted to the new HOF. So yeah, it works.

Not sure about on Huge maps though--with so many opponents, there will always be those aggressive opponents to worry about after the initial rush. See the thread in my Cultural Deity win post for more.

 

[Kalleyao]

Hey VirusMonster,

I gave the Quecha rush, combined with my cultural strategy a go. After a couple tries, I came up with a 1550 Deity win on a small Pangea map, which I submitted to the new HOF. So yeah, it works.

Not sure about on Huge maps though--with so many opponents, there will always be those aggressive opponents to worry about after the initial rush. See the thread in my Cultural Deity win post for more.

Is culture victory easier or harder with the new patch?

 

[VirusMonster]

Hey VirusMonster,

I gave the Quecha rush, combined with my cultural strategy a go. After a couple tries, I came up with a 1550 Deity win on a small Pangea map, which I submitted to the new HOF. So yeah, it works.

Not sure about on Huge maps though--with so many opponents, there will always be those aggressive opponents to worry about after the initial rush. See the thread in my Cultural Deity win post for more.

Yep, I answered in your thread I am glad to hear our strategies combined work on smaller maps Look up the suggestions I made and reread my article if you can, because there is some extra wisdom in details

Unlike a cultural win strategy, I have some big trouble continuing warmongering after 6 cities have been captured.

I have so far always lost after capturing 6 cities, because I want to continue with my rapid expansion and once I have 8-10 cities and control some huge land, my army is not mobile enough to defend on time vs AI stack attack.
Let's say my army is all in the west and AI attacks from the east.

I guess if I sticked with a small enough empire or had better prediction skills of enemy attack or had a more mobile army, I would be fine. I also think elephants are crucial if you want to survive at that stage.

Gj again I hope you can score highest with the cultural quechua strategy.