Vote to overturn the Council Vote

[Hygro]

If we havea 24 hour poll, and the council votes within 20 hours in the poll, and some of the players can vote as well, then its even better than just the Council Vote.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

well, how about a 24hr poll where everyone can vote, and the will of the people goes, but if more than three executives decide to veto the decision, the decision is not passed.

So pretty much, the people who see the 24hr poll vote, and option A passes. But lets say the pressy, foreign minister, domestic advisor and science advisor all disagree with the result VERY strongly. I dont just mean their opinions differ, but rather they know such a result in a poll would greatly disadvantage the nation. If those four execs decide to veto the choice, it cannot pass.

this shifts the balance of power to the people, but the executive still are able to offer protection to the nation. Because if we dont allow any veto power, a bunch of know-nothing lurkers (or possibly spies) could crash the poll, and make a terrible decision on the rest of the team's behalf. The better part of the team may turn up only to find an absurd matter passed. We want at least the peace of mind that the leaders you voted in - because you trusted them - are in control in an emergency, and not just anybody who visited our forum that day and saw a cool poll.

So yes, council votes should be removed, but not completely. The executive should still have the ability to keep the nation in control, instead of letting it get wildly off track.

 

[Ankka]

Good thinking. I sort of maybe even like the idea...

 

[Hygro]

That idea is good because it keeps votes like Octavian's 3 vote thing for a treaty that people didn't actually want (mind you it was a fluke and it didn't make sense how people actually missed it).

 

[Bootstoots]

I think that would be a good idea. I would be supportive of a measure like that.

 

[Vander]

I too would like this alot better. I would feel like more of a contributor to this game.

 

[Ankka]

Yeah, as I think of it, it really makes a lot of sense. The government still has power, even as the votes will be open.

Great idea, GBM!

 

[Gingerbread Man]

Here are the constitution articles in question:

Originally posted by Octavian X
Please do not post in this thread.

The Constitution of Fanatikou

Article M. In the event any leader takes a temporary leave of absence, he shall appoint a pro-tempore official to fill that position until the leader shall return.

1. In the event the positions of Minister of Domestic Affairs, Minister of Foreign Affairs, Vice President, or Justice of the Court becomes vacant, the President shall apoint a new citizen to fill the vacant position.
2. In the event the positions of Minister of Defense or Minister of Science becomes vacant, the Minister of Domestic Affairs shall apoint a new citizen to fill the vacant position.
3. If the position of Ambassador to any nation becomes vacant, the Minister of Foreign Affairs shall appoint a new citizen to fill the vacant position.
4. In the event the President vacates his/her position, the Vice President shall become President, and shall appoint a new citizen to be Vice President.
5. All appointments must be approved by the Executive Council.

Article O. Treaties with foreign nation may be ratified by Fanatikou in one of three manners:

1. In matters of extremely urgent national security (ex. impending invasion), the President may chose to sign the treaty, making it binding for all of Fanatikou. However, the Chief Jutice would have to verify that is was indeed a matter of extremely urgent national security, and then would have to give permission to the President allowing him to sign it.
2. In treaties involving relations with foreign nations, such as alliances, non-agression pacts, peace treaties, and declarations of war, the Executive Council must, by simple majority, ratify the treaty. In addition, in a poll open for a minimum of two days, a simple majority of voters must approve the ratification.

Look, and amnend!

 

[Gingerbread Man]

May I suggest changing Article M, 5 to:

All appointments must be approved by a public poll lasting 
at least 2 days, or 24 hours in situations deemed urgent. The 
outcome of the poll may be vetoed by a majority of the executive 
(> 50%) if the outcome of the poll was in some way unfair, 
biased, misguided, or causing damage to Fanatikou.

And article O to:

Article O. Treaties with foreign nation may be ratified by 
Fanatikou in one of three manners:

In matters of urgent national security the President may apply to 
the MSDG administration for additional time. He/she will then post a
 24hr public poll, the ouctcome of which will be the action taken in
 the situation. The outcome may be vetoed by the majority (>
 50%) of the executive.

If there is no time for a 24hr poll, the president may make a
 decision on behalf of the nation. There must be at least one
 witness at the time. The decision may be investigated if an
 investigation is necessary.

In treaties involving relations with foreign nations, such as
 alliances, non-agression pacts, peace treaties, and declarations
 of war, a public poll running at least 48 hours must be held, the 
outcome of which is the action taken. The outcome may be 
vetoed by a majority (> 50%) of the executive.

Still needs lots of refinement. At the moment it is a little scrappy, and beurocratic.

 

[Ankka]

Going into the right direction.

 

[Bootstoots]

Looks pretty good. I have some suggestions though.

Perhaps you could eliminate all of the parts about executive vetoes from the current proposal, and instead create Article P and place them there. Here's an idea for that article:

[i]Article P.[/i] The Executive Council may veto the outcome of polls related to the 
confirmation of appointees, foreign relations, and trades if the outcome of the poll 
was in some way biased, unfair, misguided, or causing damage to Fanatikou.  Any member
 of the Executive Council may initiate a veto, and the support of a majority of the 
Executive Council is required to veto the outcome of the poll.

Also, I would like to suggest that the O.2 proposal be changed a bit so that there are fewer investigations. Here's my suggestion for that:

If there is no time for a 24hr poll, the president may make a
 decision on behalf of the nation. The Justice of the Court must
 agree that it is a matter of extremely urgent national security.
  If the Justice is not available, the President may make the 
decision on his own in the presence of at least one witness.  
The decision may be investigated if an investigation is necessary.

 

[Hygro]

I like Bootstoots tweaks on Gingerbread Man's amendment.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

I like I like!

so that would make M.5:
All appointments must be approved by a public poll lasting
at least 2 days, or 24 hours in situations deemed urgent.

Article O:
Article O. Treaties with foreign nation may be ratified by
Fanatikou in one of three manners:

In matters of urgent national security the President may apply to the MSDG administration for additional time. He/she will then post a 24hr public poll, the ouctcome of which will be the action taken in the situation.

If there is no time for a 24hr poll, the president may make a decision on behalf of the nation. The Justice of the Court must agree that it is a matter of extremely urgent national security. If the Justice is not available, the President may make the decision on his own in the presence of at least one witness. The decision may be investigated if an investigation is necessary.

In treaties involving relations with foreign nations, such as
alliances, non-agression pacts, peace treaties, and declarations
of war, a public poll running at least 48 hours must be held, the
outcome of which is the action taken.

And the new article P to:
Article P. The Executive Council may veto the outcome of polls related to the
confirmation of appointees, foreign relations, and trades or a 24 hour poll if the
outcome of the poll was in some way biased, unfair, misguided, or causing damage to
Fanatikou. Any member of the Executive Council may initiate a veto, and the support
of a majority of the Executive Council is required to veto the outcome of the poll.

dont forget that 24hr polls are the main reason we are allowing veto.

 

[Bootstoots]

Looks great to me.

 

[Octavian X]

I really think we're attempting to overcomplicate a simple matter. If anything, we need a looser constitution, not more rules and regulations. In retrospect, I regret psuhing to add the article on treaty ratification.

The key for us is streamlining everything. We play on a regular timetable, at a pace where we really can't afford to spend an excessive time on making decisions. In fact, simply so we didn't spend so much time and worry on them, I'd push for the parliamentary-style terms of Apolyton and GCA: officials stay in office until they're voted out, with no regular elections. But that's a different matter.

Still, whatever changes that are thought to be necessary, I urge that they be made ones that uncomplicate the process. Simple and fast is good.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

Well, we are just making things simpler. By requiring less council votes, we are saving ourselves time.

The only real extra, unstreamlined addition is the need of a witness to a presidential decision.

 

[Ankka]

Yeah. This IS simpler than before. It just sounds more complicated. So let it be as GBM and Boots said, IMHO.