Vox Populi Declaration Of Friendship Formula

[paul92]

Hello Everyone,

I'm here searching for some answers that i've not been able to find on the net.

1) What is the formula for AI players asking for a Declaration of Friendship to Human Player?
2) What is the formula for AI players to accept a Declaration of Friendship proposal from a Human Player?

I know for sure that the threshold changed from 12 to 32. And that is okay.
But i've some AI civs that have like atleast a -90 opinion of me, are super friendly and all but still do not accept any declaration of friendship from me.

Can someone tell me the current formula? Or also which file to look for?
I'm fine with also understanding which part of Vox Populi touched this. Is it the community patch? Is it the Community Balance? Or maybe also the Diplomatic Features from Civ IV?

Thanks in advance for anyone able to provide the formula, or which file to look for!

 

[vyyt]

I cannot provide the answer, but does AI treat the human player in any different way than other AIs? I thought the willingness to accept a DOF is the same for AIs and humans regardless ...

 

[civplayer33]

But i've some AI civs that have like atleast a -90 opinion of me, are super friendly and all but still do not accept any declaration of friendship from me.

This is likely because the AI has entered a "deceptive stance" against you, where it plays nice and shows the attitude as "Friendly" but will secretly plot against you.

I don't know the answer to the other questions.

 

[paul92]

Yeah I'm aware of the deceptive stance, but i doubt this is the case. I know which modifiers increment the "deceptive" stance and with most of these civs this wasn't the case in the past game.
As of now i never managed to have a dof proposal accepted. AI need to do the first step.
Would love to get a full understanding of the formula behind it so if i want to team with a civ i'll have better chance to do it.

 

[Tantro]

I feel like its too difficult to make DOFs and defensive pacts with the computer, currently. As in, never successful.

 

[vyyt]

I really think there is no difference in AI vs AI and AI vs Human relationships. The thing is that AIs evaluate diplomacy at the beginning of each turn and if they think that a DOF with you would be beneficial, they offer it to you. If they do not find it beneficial, then they neither approach you with the offer and neither accept yours. This imo results in AIs never accepting human DOF offers (if they were willing to accept, they had already already approached you).

And therefore it misleads you to thinking that they treat humans differently. I could be wrong though, an insight from the code people would be nice.

 

[crdvis16]

I feel like its too difficult to make DOFs and defensive pacts with the computer, currently. As in, never successful.

I get DoF and defensive pacts pretty frequently. Usually to get a defensive pact you need to have a fairly strong army.

 

[Minh Le]

I get DoF and backstabed A LOT in current version

 

[paul92]

Well, AIs in my games are making DOF left and right, just not with me. That's why i'm looking to see if we can get an overview of the formula, because it looks like it's not all a matter of opinion.

Is there anyone here that has enough knowledge about formulas that could help out?

 

[Kim Dong Un]

Well, AIs in my games are making DOF left and right, just not with me. That's why i'm looking to see if we can get an overview of the formula, because it looks like it's not all a matter of opinion.

Is there anyone here that has enough knowledge about formulas that could help out?

I've personally asked G this myself in the past, and the answer is that you will never initiate DoF or defensive pacts with the AI. The moment an AI hits a threshold with you in regards to positive diplomacy, you will be asked by the AI, and the option made available with proposed trade.

This is not stated anywhere for players, yet was something that frustrated me and seemed broken for a long time.

 

[civplayer33]

you will never initiate DoF or defensive pacts

I've actually managed to do both, albeit rarely. Probably something I did or other AIs did in the same turn put me over the threshold.

There is the question of whether it is wise to ask the AI, though, since I have the feeling that once you ask and the AI declines, you block the possibility of DOF for quite some time, even if it may become possible.

 

[TranceBlossom]

Well, AIs in my games are making DOF left and right, just not with me. That's why i'm looking to see if we can get an overview of the formula, because it looks like it's not all a matter of opinion.

Is there anyone here that has enough knowledge about formulas that could help out?

You probably need a bigger army. For DoF specifically, you should be proactive in your diplomacy, both giving the AI advantageous trades and denouncing/warring the same leaders as them. One difference between vanilla and VP is that you can't treat diplomacy passively and be rewarded for it; you usually have to work for DoFs, or build an army large enough to scare the AI.

Recently, however, I have noticed the AI being willing to make DoFs without effort in the very early eras.

 

[documental]

DoF stopped being a possibility for me in the industrial era, and was something of a rarity among the AI.

By any chance does the AI look at previous success of wars?

 

[vyyt]

There is the question of whether it is wise to ask the AI, though, since I have the feeling that once you ask and the AI declines, you block the possibility of DOF for quite some time, even if it may become possible.

Exactly! I don't ask AIs for DOFs for this exact reason. If there is a chance, they will approach me by themsleves.

@documental, is this happening consistently to you? I am usually getting DOFs even in later stages, although it becomes more difficult as more and more AIs start to see me as the threat to the world peace.

 

[Tantro]

And here I thought civs just hated me, my immersion has been ruined!

 

[paul92]

You probably need a bigger army. For DoF specifically, you should be proactive in your diplomacy, both giving the AI advantageous trades and denouncing/warring the same leaders as them. One difference between vanilla and VP is that you can't treat diplomacy passively and be rewarded for it; you usually have to work for DoFs, or build an army large enough to scare the AI.

Recently, however, I have noticed the AI being willing to make DoFs without effort in the very early eras.

Funny you said that... I'm rated 1 for both military and economic... So that definitely can't be the case.

I think with suppositions we won't go anywhere... Looks like a lot of people think it is broken somehow. With a formula shown we'll be able to understand what actually factors in it...

What stuns me is that it looks like noone knows... And those who knows are not willing to share... It's usually the opposite on modding communities, but i'm not an expert here so i don't know if mod authors are jealous and unwilling to reveal these tecnicalities... I hope it's not the case.

 

[documental]

@documental, is this happening consistently to you? I am usually getting DOFs even in later stages, although it becomes more difficult as more and more AIs start to see me as the threat to the world peace.

Haven't had enough games recently to say if it's consistent or not. My frustration was I unable to make DoF's with either of my vassals, one of which I brought back to life and gave them back all their cities conquered by another AI. And despite all the things that do work in the early game, trade, denouncing, war, (with religion and ideology to boot), nothing seemed to overcome what was going on when diplomacy initially fell apart. I had a high point of -90 warmonger diplo modifier with some civs and much of the world was at war. Everything seemed mostly normal all throughout, all except for when DoF's and defensive pacts stopped being a thing.

I'll mention this to cause they may be potential causes;
The AI may still look at you negatively if you continue to war with civs you sanctioned. Warmonger took a while to fall, but by the end was totally eclipsed by all the positive modifiers I had with other civs.
I got "your behavior infuriates them" with everyone after a time. It's hard to tell what this is from. At a glance attributing it the world congress would make sense, but most of the civs seemed to appreciate all my sanctions and luxury banning.
The world would unite under hating the top 2 warmonger civs, but nobody liked their neighbors.

 

[Rekk]

What stuns me is that it looks like noone knows... And those who knows are not willing to share... It's usually the opposite on modding communities, but i'm not an expert here so i don't know if mod authors are jealous and unwilling to reveal these tecnicalities... I hope it's not the case.

VP is open source, but most people don't care to look into it. Those who have are generally busy with other things.

 

[TranceBlossom]

I'm rated 1 for both military and economic... So that definitely can't be the case.

If you have the best military but you're using it to conquer the world, people won't exactly like you. Having the best economy is irrelevant. Honestly just look at diplo modifiers for each civ and see what negative ones you have.

I think with suppositions we won't go anywhere...

Well without screenshots or save games we have nothing else to go off of for why you specifically are having trouble. I personally have no trouble getting DoFs if I want to until the later stages of the game.

What stuns me is that it looks like noone knows... And those who knows are not willing to share... It's usually the opposite on modding communities, but i'm not an expert here so i don't know if mod authors are jealous and unwilling to reveal these tecnicalities... I hope it's not the case.

As Rekk said, it's open source. You can open the code yourself and read it if you want. That being said, The "formula" is probably a lot more complicated than it seems you're imagining; everything that gives a diplomatic modifier is a factor, and it depends on each AI civ's personality, too. Try playing with Transparent Diplomacy and just try to max out all the modifiers. If you want DoFs and DPs, have a big enough army that other civs respect you, but only use it for defense. If you want to go on the offensive, it better be against a civ everyone hates, or else no one will want to be your friend. No one's keeping secrets from you, it's just not a simple "A + B / C" answer.

I got "your behavior infuriates them" with everyone after a time. It's hard to tell what this is from.

This means they view you as a threat to winning and don't want to play nice with you any more. In the later eras this is basically unavoidable (unless you actually have no chance of winning, I assume).

 

[paul92]

If you have the best military but you're using it to conquer the world, people won't exactly like you. Having the best economy is irrelevant. Honestly just look at diplo modifiers for each civ and see what negative ones you have.


Well without screenshots or save games we have nothing else to go off of for why you specifically are having trouble. I personally have no trouble getting DoFs if I want to until the later stages of the game.


As Rekk said, it's open source. You can open the code yourself and read it if you want. That being said, The "formula" is probably a lot more complicated than it seems you're imagining; everything that gives a diplomatic modifier is a factor, and it depends on each AI civ's personality, too. Try playing with Transparent Diplomacy and just try to max out all the modifiers. If you want DoFs and DPs, have a big enough army that other civs respect you, but only use it for defense. If you want to go on the offensive, it better be against a civ everyone hates, or else no one will want to be your friend. No one's keeping secrets from you, it's just not a simple "A + B / C" answer.


This means they view you as a threat to winning and don't want to play nice with you any more. In the later eras this is basically unavoidable (unless you actually have no chance of winning, I assume).

A formula is a way easier way to understand what factors in the AI deciding yes or not. Even if it's not simple, knowing it it's better than not knowing it and going for suppositions.
If i opened this thread it's only because with the situation i'm currently in, i expect to be able to friend someone. I'm not a newbie, indeed all the things you suggested to do are what i already did in my game. But let's go in depths on your points.


- everything that gives a diplomatic modifier is a factor, and it depends on each AI civ's personality, too.
Yep, i'm aware of that. I read through the code and found all these stuff you're talking about.

- Try playing with Transparent Diplomacy and just try to max out all the modifiers
Did that. With civs i'm interested i've like -90 opinion... which should be more than enough to be able to DOF. I'll tell you it's probably more than needed and you probably had DOF with civs with way less.

- If you want DoFs and DPs, have a big enough army that other civs respect you, but only use it for defense
Yep. First military score, never delcared war yet. I don't intend to go for a military victory either.

- No one's keeping secrets from you, it's just not a simple "A + B / C" answer.
I'm fine with the formula, even if it is A + B / C * D + E / F, etc...


So as you can see I already did the obvious things. And since it's not working, it means there is something else that needs to be taken into account. Without the formula we won't be able to know what.
I'm okay with looking at it by myself if only i had some indications of where to look for. I already read through many of the Vox Populi code, just didn't manage to find it. And as you can imagine there is a lot to go through.
I prefer to go directly to the source than going with assumptions.

P.S: To save some time, i'll tell already that i'm well aware and knows about the deceptive, stances, the relationships between the AIs affecting the opinion towards the players (and other AIs etc) and also knows by how much. Just saying so we skip the basic topics and save some time.