Vox Populi vs Sapiens/Gaia

[BismarkNova]

Hi all,

I've been playing Vox Populi on and off for a few years now and have been enjoying it tremendously. Thanks for all the hard work being put into the continuous development.

I hope this question won't be blasphemous, however I recently encountered on YouTube the Sapiens mod, based on the Gaia core mod and have been giving it a go for a week or so.

As far as any of you out there, has anyone else heard about the mod or has been giving it, and it's other sub-mods, a try? In some aspects, it seems like an improvement of VP. In others it seems lacking somewhat.

I especially like the more organized, less cultured, nature of its main mod and affiliated sub mods via Steam. Seems more comfortable to the average user with less likelihood of conflicting mods and without the constant pain of keep all sub-mods updated.

I can't seem to find any dedicated forums, and searches are barely coming up with anything, so I thought I'd give it a go over here since the mod is somewhat similar to VP.

Cheers.

 

[Tekamthi]

Its a great mod, I think it might be fair to say sapiens is somewhat of a fork of VP, with distinct vision on some key aspects of the game, and with a broader scope for gameplay features. To distill a comparison down to its most basic terms, VP devs and modders alike tend to try to make things that are ~equally AI and human accessible as an (almost) unbreakable rule, whereas sapiens & gaia's collection of addon mods includes many fun, exotic features & mechanisms that sometimes confer advantage to human due to their added gameplay complexity. If you want the most competitive AI available and very balanced human vs AI game, VP probably has the edge -- but if you're into thematic & historical features, Sapiens has more of these. I'm relatively new to sapiens still, only played a few games with Gaia's mods, but thats my take so far anyway.

In any case they're high quality, a nice alternative to VP & the only other overhaul mod I play these days. Most of the discussion tends to take place on steam workshop & discord. Most VP & Sapiens mods are inter-operable between both, if you want to mix & match a little. Some will have unintended or unbalancing effects if cross-loaded, but rarely if ever game-breaking.

 

[KayAU]

I had no idea there was another VP level complete overhaul, but this looks really interesting. It also looks very different from VP, so I suppose there will be a learning curve, as there was when I first started playing VP. I will check it out.

Technically, can I have this installed alongside VP?

 

[frktest]

I had no idea there was another VP level complete overhaul

Neithert do I.
I' m trying it, look wonderfull but I have a lot of game crash

 

[Tekamthi]

Technically, can I have this installed alongside VP

As long as you're not playing either one via modpack, should be fine.

You can't have both mods loaded at same time but shouldn't be an issue if you have both in your mod list afaik

 

[BismarkNova]

Well, as far as a steep learning curve - it's actually not that bad. Thought the tech tree is somewhat different, many mechanics are similar in nature.

Crashes may occur due to mod load order. See the instructions in the Steam Workshop description.

So far, it seems a really fun and complete mod, and in many ways even superior to VP. Again, hard to compare for now, but it has a distinct magic which is hard to point right now.

 

[KayAU]

Thanks for the replies, I will give it a go once I'm done with my current run with VP.

I was looking at Marbozir's Sapiens stream which he did a couple of weeks back, and there were a couple of things I particularly envied: the active volcano next to the capital and the new resources. It appears there is a resource mod for VP as well, but it doesn't work with the latest version.

 

[BismarkNova]

Yeah, the new resources are amazing, as well as other mechanics which I barely touched upon even after two games.

The only thing I'm REALLY missing is the communitu79_a map script which is part of VP. I downloaded an earlier version from the non VP forums threads but it doesn't seem to work.

I thought about returning to VP and try the new beta, however like you mentioned - the 'more resources mod' seems broken as of now. A real pity...

Makes me appreciate the Gaia/Sapiens mod more as it seems more harmonious and user friendlier with it's integrated and supported mods which are updates automatically via steam. I really don't enjoy having browse the VP mods sub-forum and having to locate each mod-mod update - sometimes after painfully browsing several pages of each post for some later fix. It's a real pain which Gaia/Sapiens resolves. The one drawback is now missing some features I like from other mod-mod like communitu70_a.

 

[KayAU]

@BismarkNova
Collecting resources for monopoly bonuses is one of my favourite things to do in VP. I also find that they add a lot of life to the map. Looking at Marbozir's stream, those lavender tiles are glorious.

I too would have preferred to get everything through the Workshop, but I suppose there is a reason it is distributed the way it is. It does seem to be very stable and well put together in every way. I am also grateful that it is being continuously improved and added to. I recently updated to the latest version after not keeping it updated for a while, and found that there is now new stuff, like bonus resources I don't remember seeing, and an improved Espionage system. It's wonderful that we have not one but two high quality total overhauls which are still being developed and expanded. Civ 6 never managed to become the game I wanted it to be, so VP has been my preferred Civ game for a while now.

I actually haven't tried the map script you mentioned, I will have to do so now.

 

[ilteroi]

iirc, at one point the community patch was the most downloaded mod on the steam workshop with a prominent link on the front page but then suddenly it was shadowbanned and you had to search for it explicitly. draw your own conclusions.

 

[BismarkNova]

iirc, at one point the community patch was the most downloaded mod on the steam workshop with a prominent link on the front page but then suddenly it was shadowbanned and you had to search for it explicitly. draw your own conclusions.

I can't seem to draw any, as I always thought there's a reason why the entire maintenance of the mod is done via a dedicated forum. As mentioned, I find it to be quite a pain, especially compared to how the Gaia/Sapiens mod is so well ordered via steam. And again, I'm speaking as a diehard VP fan for years now. I adore the mod, and have great admiration for those maintaining it as a mere passion. But yet, I don't get the method and the entire disarray the mod and it's modmods are nowadays maintained. Why do you think it's so?

 

[looorg]

I can't seem to draw any, as I always thought there's a reason why the entire maintenance of the mod is done via a dedicated forum. As mentioned, I find it to be quite a pain, especially compared to how the Gaia/Sapiens mod is so well ordered via steam. And again, I'm speaking as a diehard VP fan for years now. I adore the mod, and have great admiration for those maintaining it as a mere passion. But yet, I don't get the method and the entire disarray the mod and it's modmods are nowadays maintained. Why do you think it's so?

No idea. But it is interesting. I'm of the complete opposite idea. I utterly hate Steam and the workshop. I pretty much blocked Steam as it's not really needed to play C5. Nothing good came from the Steam integration of the game as far as I'm concerned. I much prefer to get the mod and the modmod in packages that I download from here. Instead of having subs on the workshop. The entire Steam thing is just a massive pain.

I saw Marbz played it and I looked at Gaia/Sapiens, and while it looks interesting I just can't be arsed to connect to steam and have subs for it on the Workshop. If I can get it in an easily downloaded package instead of having a bunch of different mods I might try it. But until that time it's just not interesting at all. So I guess we are all a bit different there.

 

[BismarkNova]

No idea. But it is interesting. I'm of the complete opposite idea. I utterly hate Steam and the workshop. I pretty much blocked Steam as it's not really needed to play C5. Nothing good came from the Steam integration of the game as far as I'm concerned. I much prefer to get the mod and the modmod in packages that I download from here. Instead of having subs on the workshop. The entire Steam thing is just a massive pain.

I saw Marbz played it and I looked at Gaia/Sapiens, and while it looks interesting I just can't be arsed to connect to steam and have subs for it on the Workshop. If I can get it in an easily downloaded package instead of having a bunch of different mods I might try it. But until that time it's just not interesting at all. So I guess we are all a bit different there.

Well cheers to our differences.

Steam or not, I just wish there was more harmony or coherency between the different mods. Many VP mods are outdated or broken, and only a few, after much deliberation on these forums, find themselves integrated into the main mod. Those who are still maintained are either hidden behind pages upon pages of forum threads with ad hoc fixes hiding in some later post, or in independent steam versions. It's really a pain to keep all of them working together and updated.

Steam and Gaia/Sapiens offer, in my opinion, a way more coherent experience with automatically updates connected 'all in one' mods via Steam. It's just user friendlier, and less prone to breaking. And again - this comes from a hardcore VP fan. VP simply brought life to Civ V for me, and I guess all of us. But the hard truth it's turning into a jumble of fast paced updated broken versions and an even bigger jumble of modmods, conflicting with each other and broken. Makes it hard for 'simple folk' like myself to just click on a button or download a file or two to enjoy the best version of the mod there is.

It seems that for some reason, the development process forgot the importance of the user experience as a whole, and the simplicity the end user is looking for.

 

[hokath]

This is important feedback.

I think a lot of us veterans experience things very differently and it's good to be reminded when things are not clean/clear.

 

[rsc2a]

Well cheers to our differences.

Steam or not, I just wish there was more harmony or coherency between the different mods. Many VP mods are outdated or broken, and only a few, after much deliberation on these forums, find themselves integrated into the main mod. Those who are still maintained are either hidden behind pages upon pages of forum threads with ad hoc fixes hiding in some later post, or in independent steam versions. It's really a pain to keep all of them working together and updated...

...VP simply brought life to Civ V for me, and I guess all of us. But the hard truth it's turning into a jumble of fast paced updated broken versions and an even bigger jumble of modmods, conflicting with each other and broken. Makes it hard for 'simple folk' like myself to just click on a button or download a file or two to enjoy the best version of the mod there is.

It seems that for some reason, the development process forgot the importance of the user experience as a whole, and the simplicity the end user is looking for.

This kind of echoes my feelings pretty well. I remember the great merge to 2.0, then 3.0 then 4.0. Now you throw in the VP congress, and it's just a constant stream of possible change to the core files. At one point, the idea was to come up with a Going for Gold ultimate VP release.

Now when there's a major change, you have to go back through mods and see what works and what does. At least personally, it means I end up dragging my feet on updates because I know they are so frequent.

I don't know what the general thought is, but I think it would be better of some kind of Gold release was adopted, then the VP congress could function with modmods and mini-modmods. People could even bundle modmods into packages if there were modmod groups that a person was developing with a theme in mind. At least there would be some kind of stability on the core files that people could depend on in this case. (If this idea was adopted, I do think it would make sense to go through the mods in the mod repository and bury any in a legacy folder that are known to be outdated or fundamentally broken.)

 

[Tekamthi]

I don't get the method and the entire disarray the mod and it's modmods are nowadays maintained. Why do you think it's so?

There are some fundamental differences in the license you agree to as content creator, when uploading to steam workshop vs CF -- its largely of no consequence to how most of this work ends up getting used for the vast majority, but many prefer to make their work available where the terms of sharing are more reasonable. That said, even CF's version-control structure is not used by VP, that might be a nice improvement to usability.

While I agree the workshop integration makes things more convenient as player/user, civ franchise has long been a staple of PC gaming, and where would PC gaming be without troubleshooting and extensive out-of-game workarounds? we could all play console games if we really wanted easy, trouble-free installs and configs, right?

 

[SpankmyMetroid]

I can't seem to draw any, as I always thought there's a reason why the entire maintenance of the mod is done via a dedicated forum. As mentioned, I find it to be quite a pain, especially compared to how the Gaia/Sapiens mod is so well ordered via steam. And again, I'm speaking as a diehard VP fan for years now. I adore the mod, and have great admiration for those maintaining it as a mere passion. But yet, I don't get the method and the entire disarray the mod and it's modmods are nowadays maintained. Why do you think it's so?

I believe what Ilteroi was implying was that Firaxis asked steam to take it down since they realized an all inclusive community modded version of civ 5 was on par with (or superior to) their efforts at a sequel (something I agree with) which would hurt 6's sales. Even with their best efforts to hamstring 5's playability, it took 3 years since 6's release date for it's player count to surpass 5's.

 

[Anarcomu]

it took 3 years since 6's release date for it's player count to surpass 5's.

I'm actually impressed that CIV 6 surpassed CIV 5 ; i'd've bet it could never happen.

 

[hokath]

If this idea was adopted, I do think it would make sense to go through the mods in the mod repository and bury any in a legacy folder that are known to be outdated or fundamentally broken.

I think the mods repository certainly needs a spring clean, even without such a change in philosophy

 

[looorg]

I think the mods repository certainly needs a spring clean, even without such a change in philosophy

There might be an actual benefit in that regard. Sort of like how the old threads about which is the main and current latest version of VP. While the others gets locked (or should be). Have a subdirectory of the non-maintained and old legacy modmods that might not be working. I guess you sort of get that anyway since the once that are maintained and updated tends to get their threads bumped regularly. So if you go to some modmod that have not been updated in years it's a fairly safe bet that it's not working anymore, or is at least highly unlikely to work.