VQ06a - Emperor just win!
- Thread starter Maquis
- Start date
ChrTh
Happy Yule!
Turn 0 -- 875 BC
Everything looks good, I press Enter.
Turn 1 -- 850 BC
MarsA is no longer angry at the whipping and is growing again.
Turn 2 -- 825 BC
MarsA: Barracks > Worker. May switch to Axe or Spear once it's connected.
New Paris: Barracks > Axe
The borders of MarsA have expanded!
Turn 3 -- 800 BC
Turn 4 -- 775 BC
Turn 5 -- 750 BC
Pyramids have been built in a Faraway Land
MarsA now connected to the network, starts Spear.
Turn 6 -- 725 AD
Cyrus adopts Representation ... I wonder who built the Pyramids?
Turn 7 -- 700 AD
Turn 8 -- 675 AD
ParisA completes Settler, starts Axe.
Turn 9 -- 650 AD
A little crack of the
Turn 10 -- 625 AD
Sailing comes in...I choose Iron Working, due in 19. (obviously vetoable)
ParisA: Axe > Axe
New Paris: Axe > Axe
Ok, I'm going to defy protocol and pause here. The main reason is I'm not 100% sold on any of the settling spots:
ParisA is angry now, hope I didn't screw up the whip
... I did screw up moving the Axe to the frontlines, accidentally walking him into a forest 
I think MarsA is ripe for a whipping this turn, but since I'm concerned about the results in Paris I'll leave that for Maquis.
Here's the Save:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/VQ06a_BC-0625.Civ4SavedGame
Everything looks good, I press Enter.
Turn 1 -- 850 BC
MarsA is no longer angry at the whipping and is growing again.
Turn 2 -- 825 BC
MarsA: Barracks > Worker. May switch to Axe or Spear once it's connected.
New Paris: Barracks > Axe
The borders of MarsA have expanded!
Turn 3 -- 800 BC
Turn 4 -- 775 BC
Turn 5 -- 750 BC
Pyramids have been built in a Faraway Land
MarsA now connected to the network, starts Spear.
Turn 6 -- 725 AD
Cyrus adopts Representation ... I wonder who built the Pyramids?
Turn 7 -- 700 AD
Turn 8 -- 675 AD
ParisA completes Settler, starts Axe.
Turn 9 -- 650 AD
A little crack of the
Turn 10 -- 625 AD
Sailing comes in...I choose Iron Working, due in 19. (obviously vetoable)
ParisA: Axe > Axe
New Paris: Axe > Axe
Ok, I'm going to defy protocol and pause here. The main reason is I'm not 100% sold on any of the settling spots:
ParisA is angry now, hope I didn't screw up the whip
... I did screw up moving the Axe to the frontlines, accidentally walking him into a forest I think MarsA is ripe for a whipping this turn, but since I'm concerned about the results in Paris I'll leave that for Maquis.
Here's the Save:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/VQ06a_BC-0625.Civ4SavedGame
ChrTh
Happy Yule!
Ok, now that I think about it, instead of Iron Working we should head towards Monarchy...perhaps via Meditation > Priesthood so we get the religious buildings available (in the hopes we get religion soon). This way we'll be able to run Hereditary Rule for Happiness and get those Wines online.
Agreed about Monarchy.
If we settle in place, or move 1 sq E into the forest (I think I prefer the latter), we could "borrow" the corn from Mars for fast initial growth. Would also allow for another city further south (1S of deer?).
If we settle in place, or move 1 sq E into the forest (I think I prefer the latter), we could "borrow" the corn from Mars for fast initial growth. Would also allow for another city further south (1S of deer?).
Maquis
King
Ok, got this & playing tonight.
I think Monarchy is the way to go... we need to have our cities grow beyond size 3 & 4...
I also like Scowler's ideas on where to settle... 1E for now, and save S of deer for later...
I think Monarchy is the way to go... we need to have our cities grow beyond size 3 & 4...
I also like Scowler's ideas on where to settle... 1E for now, and save S of deer for later...
Maquis
King
I played 11, just to get us to an even 350BC.
Turn 0: Set reseach to Meditation.
Turn 1: Montreal founded 1E of where ChrTh left the settler. The city starts working the corn tile for quick growth.
Also I dial up KK. He accepts OB with us. I send a couple of our warriors out to scout.
Turn 5: KK adopts Hereditary Rule, so he's got Monarchy.
IBT: Great Lighthouse Built somewhere...
Turn 7: JC asks for OB (again?) I refuse... hopefully this won't come back to bite us.
Not much else to report during turns. Been building axes pretty much everywhere. I laid off the whip... Marsaille and ParisA are still both mad from the last round.
Ok, here's what I have found with KK. He's got 6 cities (already). most are lightly defended, Turfan, Beshbalik are the two nearest us, and IMO able to be taken.
Turfan has the gold, and spices later on. I think this sould be our first target. There's a Spear and archer there, with cultural defense of 50% (ouch!)
Beshbalik is the 3-food-plus-copper site. Also gaurded by spear and archer, but has walls, and also 50% culture:
I saw *no* horses anywhere for KK. He does have a couple swords around, and I see where his iron mine has to be: (mine on plains tile here)
If/when we attack, we should try to pillage these, as you can see the iron is guarded by an archer. Copper is unguarded.
We need a solid war plan. With our cities now, we are already down to 40% science. Turfan should help us, with the gold tile. Beshbalik is of course a NICE city... but we can't capture and keep too many cities without the economy crumbling.
Roster:
ChrTh -- whipped up some axes
Maquis -- Took a peek...
Scowler -- up!
bobrath -- on deck
dot
And of course... the save!
Turn 0: Set reseach to Meditation.
Turn 1: Montreal founded 1E of where ChrTh left the settler. The city starts working the corn tile for quick growth.
Also I dial up KK. He accepts OB with us. I send a couple of our warriors out to scout.
Turn 5: KK adopts Hereditary Rule, so he's got Monarchy.
IBT: Great Lighthouse Built somewhere...
Turn 7: JC asks for OB (again?) I refuse... hopefully this won't come back to bite us.
Not much else to report during turns. Been building axes pretty much everywhere. I laid off the whip... Marsaille and ParisA are still both mad from the last round.
Ok, here's what I have found with KK. He's got 6 cities (already). most are lightly defended, Turfan, Beshbalik are the two nearest us, and IMO able to be taken.
Turfan has the gold, and spices later on. I think this sould be our first target. There's a Spear and archer there, with cultural defense of 50% (ouch!)
Beshbalik is the 3-food-plus-copper site. Also gaurded by spear and archer, but has walls, and also 50% culture:
I saw *no* horses anywhere for KK. He does have a couple swords around, and I see where his iron mine has to be: (mine on plains tile here)
If/when we attack, we should try to pillage these, as you can see the iron is guarded by an archer. Copper is unguarded.
We need a solid war plan. With our cities now, we are already down to 40% science. Turfan should help us, with the gold tile. Beshbalik is of course a NICE city... but we can't capture and keep too many cities without the economy crumbling.
Roster:
ChrTh -- whipped up some axes
Maquis -- Took a peek...
Scowler -- up!
bobrath -- on deck
dot
And of course... the save!
Very thorough report. Thanks, Maquis! 
However, I'm not convinced that war is the best way forward at present. Khan's cities may seem lightly defended but he is still some way ahead of us on the power graph:
As well as the individual cultural defenses, some of his cities are defended by walls. His borders have expanded sufficiently that our units will have to slog across several tiles to reach the nearest targets - giving him time to organise defenses, rush more units, etc.
What would be our motivations and objectives?
- Capture valuable resources? I guess the priority would be the iron, but for all we know we may have our own supply as yet unrevealed. Other resources, such as gold, might well be obtained by trading.
- Acquire more territory? I don't think we need it at the moment. With borders in their current positions there is space for us to found up to five more cities - and of course this doesn't take account of territory accessible by boat. Moreover, our economy won't allow much further expansion until courthouses / currency are available.
- Pre-emptive strike? There is no evidence that Khan is planning to attack us in the near future. The relative lack of defenses in his towns suggests the contrary, in my opinion. If we still have room to expand then so does he, and I'm guessing he also has space to the north and east for more cities. Provided we don't fall too far behind in power I suspect he will be willing to maintain the status quo for now. If we can share a religion and trade some goods we have the start of a beautiful friendship...
Assuming we are successful in battle, how do we proceed? If we raze Khan's cities then we risk losing the sites to Jules or Cyrus. If we capture them instead we risk crippling our economy (as Maquis pointed out) and therefore falling further behind in technology. And of course, while the war is in progress we are spending money and hammers on units rather than infrastructure and technology.
My view is that we should keep the peace for now and reassess the situation once we have catapults.
If war is imminent I think it is more likely to be between Jules and Cyrus as they are already rubbing borders. Curiously, though, Cyrus appears to consider Khan his worst enemy, rather than Jules. Either way, I think we should now consider closing borders with Cyrus and opening them with Jules.
Speaking of diplomacy, I also think we should move for Alphabet with some urgency, before we get locked out of the tech race - we know Jules had Writing some time before we did, and Khan already has Monarchy, so it seems we are already falling behind. Moreover, Alphabet will also allow us to plan our own research strategy to complement the AI - a better option than simply chasing the most popular techs.
What I'm proposing is that we bolster our defenses on the front line, but build some more workers (cottages) and libraries, grow our cities once we've revolted to HR, and try not to fall behind in tech.
If Cyrus (or even Jules) declares war on Khan then we could consider taking advantage of the situation while his back is turned; otherwise, I just don't think it is worth our while.
Thoughts?
However, I'm not convinced that war is the best way forward at present. Khan's cities may seem lightly defended but he is still some way ahead of us on the power graph:
As well as the individual cultural defenses, some of his cities are defended by walls. His borders have expanded sufficiently that our units will have to slog across several tiles to reach the nearest targets - giving him time to organise defenses, rush more units, etc.
What would be our motivations and objectives?
- Capture valuable resources? I guess the priority would be the iron, but for all we know we may have our own supply as yet unrevealed. Other resources, such as gold, might well be obtained by trading.
- Acquire more territory? I don't think we need it at the moment. With borders in their current positions there is space for us to found up to five more cities - and of course this doesn't take account of territory accessible by boat. Moreover, our economy won't allow much further expansion until courthouses / currency are available.
- Pre-emptive strike? There is no evidence that Khan is planning to attack us in the near future. The relative lack of defenses in his towns suggests the contrary, in my opinion. If we still have room to expand then so does he, and I'm guessing he also has space to the north and east for more cities. Provided we don't fall too far behind in power I suspect he will be willing to maintain the status quo for now. If we can share a religion and trade some goods we have the start of a beautiful friendship...
Assuming we are successful in battle, how do we proceed? If we raze Khan's cities then we risk losing the sites to Jules or Cyrus. If we capture them instead we risk crippling our economy (as Maquis pointed out) and therefore falling further behind in technology. And of course, while the war is in progress we are spending money and hammers on units rather than infrastructure and technology.
My view is that we should keep the peace for now and reassess the situation once we have catapults.
If war is imminent I think it is more likely to be between Jules and Cyrus as they are already rubbing borders. Curiously, though, Cyrus appears to consider Khan his worst enemy, rather than Jules. Either way, I think we should now consider closing borders with Cyrus and opening them with Jules.
Speaking of diplomacy, I also think we should move for Alphabet with some urgency, before we get locked out of the tech race - we know Jules had Writing some time before we did, and Khan already has Monarchy, so it seems we are already falling behind. Moreover, Alphabet will also allow us to plan our own research strategy to complement the AI - a better option than simply chasing the most popular techs.
What I'm proposing is that we bolster our defenses on the front line, but build some more workers (cottages) and libraries, grow our cities once we've revolted to HR, and try not to fall behind in tech.
If Cyrus (or even Jules) declares war on Khan then we could consider taking advantage of the situation while his back is turned; otherwise, I just don't think it is worth our while.
Thoughts?
ChrTh
Happy Yule!
Scowler, though cowardly 
, may have a point. Our main impetus for going after Khan sooner rather than later was because of the Keshiks. However, if he doesn't have them, it's less a concern. Also, with the AI's current tech pace, Keshik will be obsolete sooner than normal.
As for the tech pace, so far we haven't met a Gandhi who will steamroll ahead. We should be able to keep up by expanding carefully and creating favorable trades. And perhaps JC will get everybody else involved in war (wouldn't be the first time).
I think I agree with Scowler, we faced a similar situation in CTIV-5 and I think it ultimately cost us the game because we chose to attack, slowing us (and the other AIs) down while Liz was able to take a tech lead she never surrendered.
EDIT: Of course, we still need to build troops. We don't want the AI coming after us, especially since they'll have Maces while we're defending with Archers. Our tech research path after Monarchy, Currency, and Construction should be to go for the defensive units (longbow, pike) rather than the offensive ones (knight, mace).
, may have a point. Our main impetus for going after Khan sooner rather than later was because of the Keshiks. However, if he doesn't have them, it's less a concern. Also, with the AI's current tech pace, Keshik will be obsolete sooner than normal.As for the tech pace, so far we haven't met a Gandhi who will steamroll ahead. We should be able to keep up by expanding carefully and creating favorable trades. And perhaps JC will get everybody else involved in war (wouldn't be the first time).
I think I agree with Scowler, we faced a similar situation in CTIV-5 and I think it ultimately cost us the game because we chose to attack, slowing us (and the other AIs) down while Liz was able to take a tech lead she never surrendered.
EDIT: Of course, we still need to build troops. We don't want the AI coming after us, especially since they'll have Maces while we're defending with Archers. Our tech research path after Monarchy, Currency, and Construction should be to go for the defensive units (longbow, pike) rather than the offensive ones (knight, mace).
ChrTh said:Scowler, though cowardly
Yes, I know I flunked your peacenik re-education camp. You don't have to rub it in!
The problem with the tech pace is that we don't yet know who else is out there, and how favourable their own situation is re. trading partners and territory. We should also think about sending out some ships to seek out new life and new civilizations...
Hmmm, looking more closely at the map we are quite restricted as to where we can send boats for the moment. I'd been hoping for a couple of crossing points. We really do need to meet the other civs as quickly as possible.
I did a quick dot map to suggest some future city plots (assuming they don't get swallowed up by the Mongol hordes). Some sites are definitely better than others, and there is much overlap in places, but they are all coastal and would provide extra commerce. If we are lucky, the southern cities may discover resources lurking under the fog.
I'll probably play my round some time later tonight, so I would welcome any more comments and ideas before then.
I did a quick dot map to suggest some future city plots (assuming they don't get swallowed up by the Mongol hordes). Some sites are definitely better than others, and there is much overlap in places, but they are all coastal and would provide extra commerce. If we are lucky, the southern cities may discover resources lurking under the fog.
I'll probably play my round some time later tonight, so I would welcome any more comments and ideas before then.
Maquis
King
Glad to see that a couple of you think this way... I had not stated an opinion, but I agree that war @ this time is not the way to go. We'd have to suicide axes with the walls & culture Kahn has.
Our immediate concern is happiness. Another reason I opened borders w/ Kahn was to hopefully get a religion or two spread to us. He's founded Hindu and Judism. I don't think he's built a shrine yet... not sure of he built the 'hedge (forgot to look for it!)
If we get a ship or two out we can at least sail north and try to see if anyone else is on our continent...
Our immediate concern is happiness. Another reason I opened borders w/ Kahn was to hopefully get a religion or two spread to us. He's founded Hindu and Judism. I don't think he's built a shrine yet... not sure of he built the 'hedge (forgot to look for it!)
If we get a ship or two out we can at least sail north and try to see if anyone else is on our continent...
ChrTh
Happy Yule!
We have Open Borders with everyone but JC, right? Why not just send a scout through Cyrus' lands and find out what's up there?
Maquis
King
Another thought, not sure how aggressive KK is in expansion... I think he might be running out of room now, unless there's anything left to the NE.
re: dotmap... Yeah, the cities are really packed in there. I'm not thinking we build a settler anytime soon... I don't think we can afford another city until Currency and/or CoL. If we're at 40% now... one more city would pretty much break us.
re: dotmap... Yeah, the cities are really packed in there. I'm not thinking we build a settler anytime soon... I don't think we can afford another city until Currency and/or CoL. If we're at 40% now... one more city would pretty much break us.
Don't worry, I'm not intending to found more cities yet - I'm just thinking ahead.
I think Khan still has some space. Jules and Cyrus are already touching borders, but no sign they are having similar difficulties with Khan. There was also quite a large area free off to the east, but that was some time ago now...
I think Khan still has some space. Jules and Cyrus are already touching borders, but no sign they are having similar difficulties with Khan. There was also quite a large area free off to the east, but that was some time ago now...
Maquis
King
In my SS, I see some of JC's culture poking into the NE corner of Ning-hisa, so I assume that JC grabbed some more of the land to the east there.
OB is a mixed bag... we have to be careful that the AI does not come through our lands and try to steal some of our land...
OB is a mixed bag... we have to be careful that the AI does not come through our lands and try to steal some of our land...
bobrath
Emperor
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2005
- Messages
- 1,238
If it wasn't a creative civ... I wouldn't worry about it. Any civ settling behind our lines is only setting a city up for flipping while costing them in distance maint. We have more important items to address then keeping civs out of our backyard.
I'll be coming home today 
. And even though some friends of mine will come to stay with me until sunday I'll be playing. Even asked for permission of my fellows in another SG to drop out because I'll definitely only have time for 1 SG.
This one.
-------
Some thoughts after a look at the save:
Oops. that have been two questions. Whatever, just my thoughts.
Regards, .
------------
MHO: Soccer rules! At least during the next four weeks in Germany!
. And even though some friends of mine will come to stay with me until sunday I'll be playing. Even asked for permission of my fellows in another SG to drop out because I'll definitely only have time for 1 SG.This one.
-------
Some thoughts after a look at the save:
- We obviously don't need to worry about Keshiks. But what makes me worry is KK's ivory for War Elephants. My experience is that they can be hell on earth if used properly.
- On not going to war: I agree! Me thinks: Get our economy going. I've never missed out on founding at least one of the three early religions ... and I think that +2gpt at 40% science really sucks! So I haven't got any experince on how to stir that wheel, but: I vote for getting our culture and our economy up asap. Maybe let NewParis be our Military City (MC ) and let the rest take care of some
, 
and 
. - On diplomacy: Cancelling OB with Cyrus and having OB with JC might put us in better shape ... given the actual political situation. But (big but here!) Cyrus might get a cultural lead (SH, GLighthouse, Mids) and might be a good partner. Nevertheless I see the problem of having KK as our next door neighbor and our enemy. And JC will be able to get some of his Praets going ... so in the end I'd vote for dropping Cyrus (politically) and join into OB with JC.
- Fourth and final thought ... is a question: What do you guys think on the island (?) E of Old Sarai? Is it worth - given that our economy got up a bit - to set a boat en route with a settler/axe or settler/archer?
Oops. that have been two questions.
Whatever, just my thoughts.Regards, .
------------
MHO: Soccer rules! At least during the next four weeks in Germany
!Good points, dot, and expressed much more clearly than I could have managed!
And on to business...
Pre-flight check reveals that Paris and Mars are unhappy and still growing, so I set up (much-needed) workers in both. Barracks in Montreal is whipped so it can focus on other things.
I think we have as much military as we are likely to need for the time being. Any more will strain our economy to breaking point. The band of axemen on the border near Mars is split up and reassigned to garrison duty elsewhere.
OB with Cyrus is cancelled; negotiations opened with Jules. Cyrus slips down to Cautious, but too bad. He has nothing to offer at present and can't reach us anyway.
300BC brings news of the birth of a Great Prophet in Kara. Sure enough, we find out the following turn that the Hindu shrine has been built. This is a Good Thing as it should improve our chances of catching religion. It also allows Khan to leapfrog Cyrus into the lead.
Meanwhile, the worker at Paris is completed (the city now starts on a library); cottages are built here and elsewhere to help our ailing economy and fund our research.
Priesthood completed in 150BC; Monarchy due in 42 turns.
Um... this bothers me somewhat. Much as we need HR, I don't think we can wait so long to get Alphabet. I have a nasty feeling that we are already too far behind to do much trading, but delaying further certainly won't help. I set up Alphabet instead (also due in 42). If necessary we can discuss (only 2 turns of beakers will be invested by the end of the round).
In 125BC Jules converts to Hinduism. Now if we can convert as well there may be a chance that this continent will become one big happy family - and Cyrus.
On the final turn, Mars completes a worker and starts a library; Montreal completes an ob and also starts a library.
There has been no sign of any threatening behaviour from Khan. His borders don't appear to have changed so he not currently expanding towards us. Jules is continuing to lose patience with Cyrus: he has dropped another point due to ongoing border disputes.
Summary: our defenses are in place and we have shifted our focus to infrastructure and economy. A lighthouse will be ready at Quebec (formerly New Paris) next turn, allowing it to grow and collect additional commerce. A library will soon be completed at Paris, with more in progress elsewhere. Cottages have been built and are thriving.
However, things are not all peachy. Even Jules, the weakest of our neighbours, is some way ahead of us in research:
I hope we haven't missed the boat by delaying Alphabet until now; I fear they are becoming too advanced.
Khan may not be advancing towards us, but his cities are growing at a furious rate:
Hopefully Bobrath and dot can start to dig us out of the hole
Save
And on to business...
Pre-flight check reveals that Paris and Mars are unhappy and still growing, so I set up (much-needed) workers in both. Barracks in Montreal is whipped so it can focus on other things.
I think we have as much military as we are likely to need for the time being. Any more will strain our economy to breaking point. The band of axemen on the border near Mars is split up and reassigned to garrison duty elsewhere.
OB with Cyrus is cancelled; negotiations opened with Jules. Cyrus slips down to Cautious, but too bad. He has nothing to offer at present and can't reach us anyway.
300BC brings news of the birth of a Great Prophet in Kara. Sure enough, we find out the following turn that the Hindu shrine has been built. This is a Good Thing as it should improve our chances of catching religion. It also allows Khan to leapfrog Cyrus into the lead.
Meanwhile, the worker at Paris is completed (the city now starts on a library); cottages are built here and elsewhere to help our ailing economy and fund our research.
Priesthood completed in 150BC; Monarchy due in 42 turns.
Um... this bothers me somewhat. Much as we need HR, I don't think we can wait so long to get Alphabet. I have a nasty feeling that we are already too far behind to do much trading, but delaying further certainly won't help. I set up Alphabet instead (also due in 42). If necessary we can discuss (only 2 turns of beakers will be invested by the end of the round).In 125BC Jules converts to Hinduism. Now if we can convert as well there may be a chance that this continent will become one big happy family - and Cyrus.
On the final turn, Mars completes a worker and starts a library; Montreal completes an ob and also starts a library.
There has been no sign of any threatening behaviour from Khan. His borders don't appear to have changed so he not currently expanding towards us. Jules is continuing to lose patience with Cyrus: he has dropped another point due to ongoing border disputes.
Summary: our defenses are in place and we have shifted our focus to infrastructure and economy. A lighthouse will be ready at Quebec (formerly New Paris) next turn, allowing it to grow and collect additional commerce. A library will soon be completed at Paris, with more in progress elsewhere. Cottages have been built and are thriving.
However, things are not all peachy. Even Jules, the weakest of our neighbours, is some way ahead of us in research:
I hope we haven't missed the boat by delaying Alphabet until now; I fear they are becoming too advanced.
Khan may not be advancing towards us, but his cities are growing at a furious rate:
Hopefully Bobrath and dot can start to dig us out of the hole
Save
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