Deity challenge #2 Joao II!

[Implo]

Hello!

I Had so much fun with the Cathrine deity game so I wanted to make another challenge! The next leader for a deity challenge is no other than Joao II! He is a leader I have little experience with and even though he can REX like no other he is definitely a guy that's not getting enough love.. so lets do something about that!

The starting area:

Settings:
Fractal map-script, No huts, no events

Please use spoilers when commenting about your game.

We will give a winner for:
Highest score or Quickest win
Spesial price for the most unique empire
Best empire @ turn 100. (With both expansive and IMP I'm really hoping for some craziness here)

GL & HF

The file posted is a WB save so you can load it with your Mod setup
Select "play scenario" and load any mod just like a nobles club game.
Remember to add: The wheel, agriculture, hunting and archery to barbs.

 

[konata_LS]

I'm really hoping fore some craziness here

Settling on the plain cow would be one of the craziest things . Wet corn is also a crazy tile to settle on . <-- just joking

It's always a pleasure to see people discuss different strategies and post their gameplay

 

[Implo]

@konata_LS that would be the scary kind of crazy! Was more hoping for the good kind of crazy

 

[Fish Man]

I finished a game on this map but I have a tendon injury that hurts quite a bit so...I'll try to post it as soon as I can.

 

[Implo]

@Fish Man to bad about tendons! I'm looking forward to your writeup!

Comment about the start. Looks rich and I think you break even or better by moving for 2 turns to PH hill. The ph hill will be awesome.. faster workers and settlers. Faster working of gold faster everything!

So thats probably going to be my opening.. but hm.. really have to think about this start and have time to play!

 

[sampsa]

Comment about the start. Looks rich and I think you break even or better by moving for 2 turns to PH hill. The ph hill will be awesome.. faster workers and settlers. Faster working of gold faster everything!

Hmm, I think that requires some investigation. Of course especially for Joao plains hill settle is very strong, but it's two turns - that's already 18 you need to catch up. You are also moving away from 4 grass river cottages.

For 1T loss moving would be clear, but as it is it's hard to say intuitively.

 

[Fippy]

Prolly not 18 cos the gold mine can be worked 1(?) turn sooner (1t faster worker), but moving away from the green river maybe hurts..
depends on which new tiles you get.

 

[sampsa]

Yes, didn't do any math, just meant you are 18 behind on T2. SIP is probably a better location long-term, so the short-term payback better be good if moving.

 

[Implo]

Disclaimer I'm a huge 2h cap tile fan and with exp and IMP I'm even more biased.

SiP is 13 turn worker. and immediat access to a wet corn. Great stuff! and strong.
But when you se a strong play.. is there something stronger?

Our other option is.. the PH forested hill. which requires 2 turns of moving. We also see snow South and probably safe lands.. so theres also another effect of moving N now.

Sip Vs 2 turn move for a 2h cap tile with IMP and EXP.

My reasoning is that with the extra hammer in cap I break even with worker on turn 13 at worst and get a 1 turn slower wet corn improvement. If i have a 1f2h or 3h tile in first 9 tiles. I get a 12 turn worker and 3 extra food. Even with 2 turn move.
So there is a short term gain of potential 3 extra food which negates the loss of 1 turn slower improvement of wet corn. The real loss is the 18 beakers lost.

So 18 beakers.. = what in this case faster Agri and BW?
Its about 11 turns (agri) and 17 turn BW (probably faster because of gold say 14 turns.) so we need about 12 turns of worker and.. farm (1 move 5 improve + gold (1 move + 4 improve) cow 5 improve) Thats 28 turns. So we do get BW in time.. i guess with 1 turn to spare. So the lost beakers early is not or bottleneck.

What can we gain? 1 h in cap = 1 h with imp. 2 h in cap = 3 h for settlers. We also get 2 h for early warrior production which gets the o so important 2 and 3 warrior out on the map so much sooner. thats about 15 extra hammers
Say we produce the settlers for at least 12 turuns (2 produce and 1 whip settler). thats 24 extra hammers. and probably get another worker thats about 4 hammers (overflowturn + chop turn+ 1-2 turn of production). So we get (15+24+4) 41 extra hammers towards early REX'ing with having a 2 h cap tile. before turn 50. The trade of is 18 beakers vs 41 hammers towards REX-ing.

The 2h tile for me means.. faster warriors = better fogbusting = safer expanction.
Faster settlers and workers. First settler is probably 1 turn earlier.. second is probably 2 turns earlier and 3 is probably 4 turns earlier. 2 worker is maybe 1 turn earlier.
All this is roughly estimates.. but the effect adds up and the snowball can roll faster. given what we se now.. I think the 2h normaly is strong but with IMP and EXP its much stronger and it will help setting up the 4 cities 3 worker setup about 4-5 turns faster than no 2h

Spoiler T0 - T32 :

T0:
So the reasoning above.. I move warrior S to check if we lose out on something if we move.. hm.. nothing. just more snow and coast. For me that reinforce my post above.
We start our settler journey! move 2N1E to get more info.. and this is a triplefoodcap with gold!

T1
I also se a 1f2h forrest to work in 9 tile radius.. so we do in fact break even or better with the 2 turn move.
I move settler first. there is nothing the warrior can reveal to change my mind.. ok CAP is stupid strong. Alot of food to share.
T2
Settle and move warrior.. if we meet 1 AI the next 3 turns we get agri when worker finishes.. that means 1 turn of farm on cow on the way to Wet corn.
T3
And we meet monty! still one 1 city... god damn.. not one of those games where i forward settles a city and get religion.. come one..

Also forgot to check the demos.. but turn 3 is still in time to check for some key insigths... Noone have 2nd city.. and no cultural players. Soldiers score say no mansa or hammurabi (probably.. cant be 100 % on hammurabi). Probably 3 or more mining AI's. We are 6th in score with 8 k. So people are mostly inland. We are 1st with 4h i Cap And last with 3f. Also low in life expetancy so probably some more EXP players or they have alot of forrest in cap. Also probably 1 or more CHA AI's. We also need to meet one more AI to get agri in 10 turns... hm..

T4 hm.. no new AI's but the agri actually finishes in 10 turns.. strange Last turn it was 11. But ok. Guess its the "deselect" tech for first 5 turns minor bug in display.
T5. Nothing intresting.. but selects Agri.
T6.. still no 2nd city from monty..+7 score. so he probably finished a military unit.. hm? From EP screen he have at least meet 1 other player.
T7 Boarder pop in cap. And we meet Bismarck! Both him and Monty have now settled 2nd city.. cant se any boardes of Monty.. so we have a little room. phew.. Will scout a little bit extra with warrior to the West. Thing the S is safe with warriors fogbusting and defending in forests. Except our great cap. we se a fairly low commerce start. Need the river city up to start develop cottages. Luckely we can share food from cap.
T8 beeing a bit adventerus with warrior.. but from @CarpoolKaraoke LP I learned that archers dont spawn until turn 11 ? so we are still fairly safe moving in open terrain.

T9 someone other than Monty founded buddism. Can also se from EP point that both Monty and Bismarck know of other player(s?).
Everyone have minimum 4 EP points in the start. So you can see that from how many points are "missing".

T10
Oh.. monty did found buddhism.. hm strange. did he delay switching into religion for 1 turn.. hm..
Met Brennus.. hm.. seems like he is close to monty.. hope he gets either hindu or Judaism.. So monty have someone to hate.
No.. hm monty have 4+ meeting bonus with brennus.. so thats not going to happen.. but -3 towards bismark so there is that.
Probably have to thing about archery early.. Maybe after BW.. just to be safe.
Thinking about settling on this PH hill and just stack some archers. against monty. have to plan defence against him early.

T12
Beutifull turn! We get the 1f on cow and brennus gets hindu. Now monty and brennus are no longer buddies.

Going for BW next. Have to think later about improving gold fast or get al the food done. First its the wet corn ofc.

T13-T16 have fortefied my warrior.. and getting some great fogbustinghelp from all the scouts running around..
T17 farm is done.. Hm.. so now planning.. gold or 1 t farm cow and improve second corn. BW timing say so.. So i guess we do that. With this much food i will consider to whip first settler.
T18-T19 nothing
T20 - 2nd warrior is done. Going to scout N. .have to se how far away monty is.
T22 he is scary close.. :/ Definitly need to set up defence city quick. To both grab land and protect cap and have a good defense setup.

T23. second farm is done. BW in 6 and worker is just 1 turn to slow from imidate starting to chop. Work the lake for 2 extra commerce and have 3rd warrior finished into starting settler @ size 4.
T24.. and thank you! Monty gets 3rd city.. and its not towards us! Notice t 24 3rd city.. So defence city is a must and we have some breathing room.
T25.. have to decide if i want to whip settler or produce.. and I think produce. with warrior overflow and the 2h cap tile working 2x 3h forrest and gold later ofc.. we get about 6-7 turn settler.
T26 6 turn settler. Not bad. Will not whip then. Since we also saw monty settler city t24. We will probably be able to get the defense city up in time.
T27. Moving 3rd warrior S.. not that worried about barbs.. there is a ton of scouts and archers running around.
T28. gold is up! just so nice! And.. BW next turn! will shadow a archer and scout down S.. so will wait a bit with moving.
T29 BW is in and what do we see! Monty defence! that city is now a great 2nd city for production and defence against monty! Good good good.

Start chopping in cap.. probably chop 2nd worker then go for a settler. with copper I'm Thinking TW next. connect copper and get trade routes.
TW also gives pottery next.. oh boy! REX GAME is ON!
T30 shadowed the scout and moved blindly into this.. hopefully the archer wont heal enough to kill us!

T31.. here I have been worried about monty.. but its Bismark thats forwardsetteling! and he has SH!.. and picks up copper with the city..

T32 Probably a timing attack on Bismark.. With settleroverflow and chop + our production we also get a beutifull 2 turn worker.
Question is if we want to go slavery now while settler moves . or wait untill we have worker out. Think maybe worker turns are our bottleneck. So probably wait for worker.
2nd city is going to work copper. and either produce a worker or settler.

I think thats enough for now.. a very interesting start and a lot to consider.

A very interesting start and a lot to consider in this game. Looking forward to see other openings..

 

[Implo]

Spoiler T32 - T53 :

T32 I think im going to settle 3 cities and like this. With this setup i have production in the bag. and 3rd city with cottages will give enough commerce to get a decent cata/axe rush going.
After pottary i probably want AH.. so if we find horses I might go for HA instead. With HA.. the i might not go for the 4th city.. That city is also just a helper city to share gold etc. and I'm not fixed on the spot just yet.

BTW Turn 34 settle! with 2 turns of moving.. I would say thats good

Prime target is Bismark.. I like to caputre the SH and maybe he gets another wonder for us

I will wait for worker to finish before slavery.
T33-T34 nothing much.. moving some warriors to barb fogbust better and scout a little. That's the one great thing with being squeezed like this. Not that big deal with barbs.
BTW going to be interesting to see if Monty goes red fist after settle.. that might happen. Start worker in Oporto.
T35.. hm delaying slavery still.. was considering whiping a settler into finishing granary in cap. So probably the 4th city.. and yeah.. need another city. No Monty red fist after settle.
There is also another thing.. I dont really want to chop away all of my forest before i have math. So hm.. just maybe i go for a 5th city somewhere..
T36-39.. found a nice fishspot.. hm.. Minor micro management actions to try to optimize granarys and settlers.
T40 - somewhat of a cool accident (should have made sure that when I went 0% Research I put enough beakers into pottery that i still could finish pottery in 5 turns.).
The result is that I still can finish pottery while being in anarchy.. because you allways get a beaker. Perfect timing.. and a little luck.

Going to delay my 3rd city by 1 turn to scout for fish.. No fish.
Delaying my granary in cap for settler.. hm.. no.. whip settler.. get granary. AH next. with AH. these 4 cities will be great productionspots.
Maybe I get a settler for Monty and get something nice and close between him and Brennus.. that is probably what I should do.
T43... HM.. need hunting.. so probably hunting before AH.. but the better plays is probably just go for writing and a settlergift for monty. We can see his research now and he is on BW (2).. when i gets copper. the chances increase for a attack..
I think i can get Writing in 9-10 turns. Will be a good timing.
T45.. will chop gift settler and whip deer-city settler into library in cap.. Going to get some quick rivercottages up. monty is IW in 20 turns.. only chariots. so hm we are safe for now. But still send 3rd settler towards his lands. for scouting and preparing.. he hates bismark and is neutral with brennus. even tho they are in different religions.
T46-T51 He is comming to settle a really dumb city in our face.
T52 worst AI city ever? btw he is still without IW so dont think he knows if there is iron there or not. The city delayed IW by 5 turns or so.
BTW T52 .. 4 cities and 4 workes.. also have a gift settler. 2 granaries (3 next turn) total of 8 pop in empire. With some micromanagement I get Writing next turn.

Putting down som cottages. HAve 2 rivercottages.. and 1 grassland. Will get 2 more non river cottages next turn. Hunting is 3 turns away. Building granary working gold in 4th city.. whil the cap grows into cottages. OB. with Monty really speed up his tech.. and hm.. going to be interesting to see if we can get him to attack brennus. If we get that going.. we can take out Bismark. If not we probably need to just defend and prepare to fight Monty. Interesting.

And.. delaying AH so much in this position.. is because right now the bottleneck is commerce not production. So Writing and libraries now will give a better timing later. might do a math bulb. And I'm still concidering a 5th city somewhere.. Think the fishspot will be to slow... hm...

 

[Implo]

I might have an hour or two to continue.. this map.. tough spot.

Spoiler T53 - T76 :

Big "what ifs" from last segment.. Monty have axemen now.. so he can redfist any second. Need to put down a gift city. hopefully so we can further create tension with him and brennus.

If Monty redfist next 3-4 turns.. we are probably the target. Might result in a loss. If we get him to pleased.. that really knocks down the risk. Then he will attack either Bismarck og brennus about 70/80 %.
Hopefully Monty gives us buddishm soon that will further reduce the risk of attack.

In either case i Think we need defense and units.So hunting and maybe archery before AH.

Nothing else really matter right. now. Will get up some libraries in cap and cottage city. and run 4 x scientists.
Build barrackses and some axemen and spears. Maybe some archers.. Prepare for a cata push.. hopefully against bismark.. but a defence then attack vs monty also seems ok.
I also dont mind preparing the production for the cata rush early. Seems like I always attack with to few units.

T55 Bismark gets the GW. and.. hm where to put this city!!

.
T56 we get Buddhism! Yay! Delibiratly not opening boarders with either bismark og brennus max our odds for buddism. holding recearch untill i have my libraries up.
we are now brennus worst enemy.. and Monty and brennus have a ton of bordering land.. this will also increase.
T61 There goes the red fist 1. turn before we could gift a city I was not in time to plant... so i guess its a cointoss if he attacks us or brennus. I have no units

T62 only place to get it down.. Gift city.. which actually means poison in my native laguage.
He is now pleased and the game gets defined by him attacking us or brennus.

T65 I cant confirm.. but I'm thinking he goes for brennus. Probably going to selftech everything.. and get a early cata going.
I have horses.. but not in a suitable spot. will need a settler. The one thing going for us is that we now with 2 libraries.. and 4 cities have great techpace considering.
We also have great production.. so this can be a good cata timing

T67.. hm I will try to show a trick I really dont often use.

If you se this difference of 2 GDP from which tech we are selecting.. the 2 GNP difference is 5 % that means at least 1 of the AI's i know have math.
So.. hm maybe i can go alpha.. for a more "solid" attack.. and just maybe get math in a trade from bismark.. its unlikely.. an maybe not smart.
I can also use alpha to beg a minor tech from monty. maybe fishing or something like that. I will hold research still and decide next turn.

Thinking alpha.. but also maybe masonry for defense better in defense city.

T57 Dont se a stack in monty cap. But it can also bea in a boarder city closer to me. Delaying tech decision 1 turn.
T69 Hm.. I do think Monty is going for brennus.
T70.. yes.. it must be brennus.. Hm.. i do like attacking bismark.. So.. lets just go Math - Masonry - Construction - Alpha.
Really want a scout to see his land.
T73 no sight of a reall stack.. if this is not it.. That looks like it is heading towards me :/

T74 -Think we will survie.. but still.. a huge setback. But then again we can defend and get our army going.. so its not the end of the world if he attacks now.

T75 Berlin is getting fatter and fatter

Best case is that monty attacks bismark.. maybe.. maybe.. next turn will tell.
And met Ragnar.. behind bismark he is plotting

T76.. The big deciding move.. are we lucky? HAha yes! Monty seems to be going for Bismarck! Nice then we can just tag along.
Will take a break and plan production.. and a attack.. 8 turns untill construction finishes. Hm.. is it worth it to attack before cata?

 

[Implo]

Spoiler T76 - T93 :

So.. Monty is going for Bismark and Ragnar has Bismark as worst enemy.
I guess a attack on Bismark as quick as possible.. and hm.. prepare to get something better than axe and cata for the next target/defense.
Need a bit more research and a bit more culture in Oporto so im going to whip a library soon.
T77 .. wow bismark even got the mids.. but in a city far away! Must be quick if I'm going to get it also got a boat to scout coast.
T78 Hm.. try to follow him in attack to maybe get Munich? 2 Jag, 1 Axe, 3 chariot.. should not be able to take munich 1 axe, 1 spear 1, archer and walls. in 2 turns.

T79.. actually 4 chariots.. 2 jag 1 axe.. hm he migth just fall. It is also a great city and will be in time to produce catas for the rest of the attack.. hm..
Brennus demanded us canceling deals with Bismark. which i conceded. But Im not ready to attack yet. So Munich is at risk.. Hm.. maybe we go for Monty if we are unlucky..
T80 - looks like his stack got whiped out! thats nice.. We will follow with catas soon and have Montys army to soften him up. Monty is also at friendly!
T81 Meet Peter with Alpha! He is teching math.. so I'm going to trade him math for myst and sailing..
T82 Brennus got TGL.. and is now plotting. and for some weird reson he has OB with monty.. so he migth attack us. I guess a couple archers in Oporto is long due annyway.. so not a big problem.
T83 and there is Mehmed.. with HR and wine for trade.. wow that scout paid of..
T84 first GS.. settle him in cap.. will help us with production and some beakers while we fight. hoping to trade construction for alpha.
T85 Construction next turn.. going to attack when i have 3-4 cata. have 10 Axe and 2 spears already. HM.. maybe peter is going for construction.. Mehmed have feuda allready ;/
T87 Brennus attacks Monty! haha.. oh well thats going to be a hard figth for him. Ragnar attacks Bismark.. Full out WWI. And we get alpha for construction! now we can stay floating Think maybe currency next.. maybe we can get some gold for trade.
T88.. I dont want to whip to much.. but i really need more tiles to work.
T93.. just bombareded for 1,5 turn and went for it.. lost 3 cata and got munich. Concidering CF just so monty can get rid of some units for me.

Continuing later..

 

[Implo]

Spoiler T93 - T106 :

A OK start to the war.. Berlin is a far way away.. Estimate i get the city in 10-14 turns which is a long time.. The pyramid city even longer! But that some great cities.. Need to squeeze in another city for fishspot before the war ends. And Mehmed is plotting.. hm maybe he also wants to go for bismark.

Optimizing som production so i get out 2 catapults next turn and 2 more the following turn.

If brennus manages to take this city thats going to be huge! I have a small plan to backstab monty after Bismark. Or maybe support Monty in war against Brennus. and get TGL.
T97. Take hamburg defense from 50 % to 6 % in one Volley !
T98 MEhmed demands Consctruiton and I give it to him. He is still plotting so it seems like have another target than me. What a war game. Take Hamburg with only 1 cata loss. BTW i used my first GG to give 10 units 2 xp. and get som better catas and axemen. Its a nice way to balance out my rather low strength army. Give the units a little boost
I will CF for 2. turns get bismark defending agaings Ragnar instead of me before i continue towards Berlin. Ragnar is far away from feuda (he havent even have priesthood or mono) So maybe we have time to get everything we want and be prepared for a monty Backstab. Going for currency now. 3 turns! Also going to grab settler for fish spot.
T99 haha! and Mehmed attacks Ragnar! Perfect war going on. Peacefull Peter with 12 cities is scary tho..!
T101 - Monty wants us to redeclare.. so do I.. but ill wait 1 more turn.. to send more units towards ragnar.. and maybe with currency we can get some gold for alpha and construction.
T102 - ups.. Bismark wont talk anyway so no way to get gold. redeclare.. going CoL next.. hoping to get Cast/rep later. pick up some much desider calander happiness from peter trade.
T105 - haha berlin.. Can almost forgive the 1 of coast placement. But in REP we trust! hopefully we get the mids now! Also great to get SH.. now I can relaxe a bit with culture pressure from Monty. and him insta killing my cities. on a suprice DOW. Maybe even get marble!

T106! Damn ragnar stole mids city! Do we dare...! it will mean relations towards mehmed.. and we have defence there.. I think we dare ;p But for next segment.

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