Vulture and cowardly ways of the AI...

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by Dr Zlu
Well, I don't agree with the definition of a "betrayal" that some of you seem to have, folks.
In my mind, a betrayal occurs when someone who has repeatedly given proofs of good will and faith suddenly backstabs you. But... Have you EVER had any reason to trust the AI in Civ3???
Well, yes, when a treaty of some kind is signed, you can suppose it will be reliable for 20 miserable turns... which is quite short compared to the whole length of a game.

that`s only for 1.16...... I had someone attack me for no reason even though I still owed them 16 turns of 2 lux + 1 gpt for nothing from them..... well, that`s Cathrine for you.....

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Killer
Zachriel: I`d like to have a US passport, it might make many things easier..... but I was not born in a state that was no more, was integrated and assimilated into the USA.....

What was that you said?

The U.S. "absorbed" Indian and Mexican lands. We purchased Russian and French lands.

Here is a recent example of a "flip". In Afghanistan, just when the U.S. was starting to feel we had control of the country, the al Queda rises up. For a brief moment they will control a small section of Afghanistan. The U.S. is in the process of swinging its army around, and will certainly put down this rebellion -- mostly because the al Queda does not have much sympathy among most ordinary Afghans.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

I was refering to your post about Germany being divided....... she was, but not included into the occupaying states....

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Killer
I was refering to your post about Germany being divided....... she was, but not included into the occupaying states....

That is correct; occupied, but not annexed. Shows the power of culture. Indeed, Germany reclaimed these provinces within a few years.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by Zachriel

That is correct; occupied, but not annexed. Shows the power of culture. Indeed, Germany reclaimed these provinces within a few years.

Yeah, our strong culture of Weißbier and Bockwurst, Wagner and soccer drove the US and Russia out!

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Killer
Yeah, our strong culture of Weißbier and Bockwurst, Wagner and soccer drove the US and Russia out!

Germany has its freedom. Now you have to keep it. As an American, I know that freedom is a constant struggle.

The price of liberty is eternal vigilance -- Tom Jefferson

 

[Hobbes]

Originally posted by Killer


Yeah, our strong culture of Weißbier and Bockwurst, Wagner and soccer drove the US and Russia out!

And how many Mickey D's are in Germany?

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by Hobbes


And how many Mickey D's are in Germany?

Thats why we have a strong counterinsurgency force - currently deployed in Afghanistan!

 

[sgrig]

Originally posted by Mavfin
As someone (can't remember who) said, hopefully somewhat close to this:

England has no eternal friends or enemies, just eternal interests....

I think that's Margaret Thatcher.

 

[kcheung]

Back to the original topic -- I am also one of the person who is deeply disappointed by the AI's "emotion". I do believe that it's possible to design an AI that deal with the diplomacy issue in a better way. In a simpliest form, the AI can keep a "friendliness" number to its rivals. Each turn, this number will be re-evaluate. Combining this number with an "aggressiveness" number of the AI and some random number, we will have a much "friendly" AI.

The problem, as I see it, is that the engine of the whole game is geared towards the warmongers.

That said, I found that I have a much easier time to win the game thru diplomacy -- even after applying the 1.17 patch.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by kcheung
Back to the original topic -- I am also one of the person who is deeply disappointed by the AI's "emotion".

How would your prevent humans from taking advantage of the good nature of an unsuspicious AI?

 

[kcheung]

How would your prevent humans from taking advantage of the good nature of an unsuspicious AI?

The point is, you couldn't. If I modify your sentence slightly:

How would your prevent a person from taking advantage of the good nature of an unsuspicious person?

The answer is, you couldn't. At the same time, I couldn't prevent the AI from taking advantage of my good nature either. If they design the game with diplomacy victory in mind, there can be many ways to level the plays b/w the AI and the human play -- give the AI a few properties to measure theirs and the human player's behavior and introduce those measure in the game play. For example, if you break a 1000 year old friendship, the AI will gain 100% of combat bonus or so.

The fact is, the ineffective AI on diplomacy shows that they designed the game with conquest victory in mind and that the diplomacy is just an add-on.

I wouldn't blame Firaxis for this -- I am disappointed, but I understand that this is a new concept to this game and it will take them some times to get the best solution. I just hope that they "listen" to our feedback and make improvement in the next version.

 

[Akka]

Originally posted by Zachriel


How would your prevent humans from taking advantage of the good nature of an unsuspicious AI?

No way.
So what ?
Why should players who wants immersion be ripped just to please the Iwantchallengemorethanfun people that just look to win the game ?
I love to roleplay, I love to imagine bonds of friendship, I would dream to go through the History with an eternal and loyal ally that I would help faithfully against agression and that would do the same for me.
But well, seems that all the immersive points are successively torn off the game to please some Excell-like players that only see how hard it's to get to the victory, not how immersive.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by kcheung


The point is, you couldn't. If I modify your sentence slightly:

How would your prevent a person from taking advantage of the good nature of an unsuspicious person?

Still seems exploitable to me, knowing that Joan will always play the patsy. In real life, Joan would learn better, but in Civ3 she is newborn every game. You would have to think about it very hard before being able to make it playable.

This particular aspect of game play, known as the prisoners dilemma, does not require a specific game engine. The standard strategies are

golden rule: do good
bronze rule: do good until betrayed
iron rule: do bad until trust established
lead rule: do bad
tit-for-tat: do what the other party did last time

Tit-for-tat is one of the most effective strategies, but the final resolution of the prisoner's dilemma is still unknown, and is the subject of a great deal of research in mathematics, networking theory and philosophy.

 

[royfurr]

Originally posted by Zachriel


Germany has its freedom. Now you have to keep it. As an American, I know that freedom is a constant struggle.

The price of liberty is eternal vigilance -- Tom Jefferson

Heres another, Zachriel and Killer, by Thomas Paine, I think (if anyone knows otherwise, please let me know- post or PM!)-

" ... the Tree of Liberty must on occasion be nourshed by the Blood of Patriots ..."


It IS a constant struggle. May we, and others that are free, always win it. Remember, though- Good only triumphs over Evil when it is Very, Very Careful ...


One of the True Challenges in Life is to know when this Struggle for Liberty is what is really happening, and not some manipulation by politicans for their own purposes ... That is one of the things we must be eternally viligant about ... but do not every doubt that there ARE some things worth fighting, even dying for.

 

[Buecephalus]

Some nice sentiments being expressed but I guess my problem with the "friendliness" concept stems from my style of play. I usually play conquer/domination games and so the concept of "friendship" doesn't apply. I maintain good relationships with whoever I'm not at war with; until I need to go to war with my "friends". I realize that not everyone plays this way but on the other hand you've got a story like the one FrantzX told several posts back. Someone said, "nice story, but what does it have to do with our current discussion." FrantzX's point was simply this, he got along great with Germany, he didn't appear to be playing a "conquest/domination" game, but the Aztecs were moving up fast, Germany had oil, and the human player made a decision to absorb Germany because it was in the player's best interest at the time to do so. It didn't matter that they'd been friendly for 2000 years, the human player needed oil, period. I'm sure that from the A.I.'s perspective (if it HAD one) that attack would seem to come out of the clear blue sky, and seem illogical and UNFAIR
I guess I just don't mind the A.I. being bloodthirsty .

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Buecephalus
Some nice sentiments being expressed but I guess my problem with the "friendliness" concept stems from my style of play. . . . I guess I just don't mind the A.I. being
bloodthirsty .

The world is a dangerous place.

 

[IClaudius]

What I hate is suddenly with the advent of Nationalism the AI Civs always gang up against me... damn mutual protection pacts etc...

??? why do I always end up in long costly wars and the civ that i signed a pact with and caused the fuss in the 1st place makes peace within a couple turns????

THINgs that meke me go hmmmmm!!!!

 

[Moulton]

In previous CIV, the AI was never to be trusted to keep treaties. In this game, they are supposed to mind their manners, and mind their reputation. If you sign on an ally, then sign peace before your 20 turns are up, forget any decent response from the AI forever. Tech prices at 800 or more, no deals on trades. THey are hard enough normally, but impossible if you backstab.
Depending on your style of play and victory goal, you might not care.. but it is there.
However, I have often signed an alliance with a neighbor, to have them back out after a few turns... Their REp??? I have signe an alliance with the Romans and the Aztecs, to have them declare war on me a few turns later?????
Looks like they are still warmongers.

 

[PaulNAdhe]

In my current game I had been trading furs with the Chinese for 2500 years. I had been in a bloodless war with Egypt for over 50 years (she couldn't get to me and I didn't want her just yet). The Chinese signed a MPP with Egypt and my furs were gone Poof like that. I began my campaign against my old 'Friends' the Chinese earlier than I planned, but I have furs now.

There are no friends, I don't really like the idea of being friends with the other civs.