Wall Improvement Tiles

[sumodaz]

I always like to make the most of rivers for defence when playing my games but i've always wanted an option to build walls as an improvement tile since early civ. I like the idea of building something like Hadrians Wall across my territory. Maybe it could slow down the enemy but have an upkeep similar to roads. I also think it would go well with forts.

What do you think? Do you think it would work well?

 

[TyBoy]

It's a neat idea, but there is the great wall wonder that has a very similar effect. Also, it's the sort of thing that a human player is going to use much much better than a computer player, which is sort of problematic.

 

[The_Quasar]

I think that the Great Wall already does this... have you tried adding Forts when you have it? They are very powerful as it's far more difficult to pass them quickly.

 

[claestw]

Maybe the Great Wall could be a National Wonder, with maintenance costs scaling to the area of land under your control. Although I also think the current Great Wall's effects should be obsolete with the discovery of Dynamite.

Or, change its effects to that any land-based unit need to spend all its remaining movement points when they cross into your territory. Your units may range attack over the border, but enemy units can't.

Or, make a National Wonder (require walls in all cities) that can be rebuilt over and over, which will leave a wall surrounding your current borders that has the same effect as described above. The wall lasts, say, 150 turns, with its effects halved in the last 50.

This will completely change the pace of invasions. It'll also provide additional layers of defense. It'll probably also make invasions too much of a hassle that people stop playing Civ 5.

 

[Sherlock]

I think that the Great Wall already does this... have you tried adding Forts when you have it? They are very powerful as it's far more difficult to pass them quickly.

My experience is that forts are made out of cardboard.

No wonder the AI never builds them.

 

[Glassmage]

Forts should do 1 damage at least to nearby enemies. (or 10 in the new game)

 

[The_Quasar]

My experience is that forts are made out of cardboard.

No wonder the AI never builds them.

I agree, I don't use them either... or the GW (never get time to, an AI always goes for it early).

However, the GW and forts together would work on lower levels.

 

[The_Quasar]

Forts should do 1 damage at least to nearby enemies. (or 10 in the new game)

Then there would be too little difference between Forts and Citadels.

 

[triheptyl]

I always thought there should be a trench improvement. Something like you build a trench on a tile, and that tile grants a +10% defense bonus, but also takes away all your movement points when you enter it (except for tanks and other mechanized units). You could set your units up in the trench for a defense bonus, or you could position them right behind it so that melee units are forced to stop right in front of you. It would be sort of like a mini-GW for a single tile, that also grants a defense boost.

For balance reasons it shouldn't be available until the renaissance or industrial era, so that it wouldn't be too long until the tanks needed to overcome these defenses start appearing.

 

[Pisskop]

The problem would be implimenting them. since each tile represents hundreds of miles, and CiV is not a war game, the resources required would approaches roads, at least(manpower, too).

speaking of roads... why the hell can I not choose to stop paying maintainance for them? Let them degrade instead of upkeeping the forsaken road to nowhere. My local government seems to have stopped paying maintainance on my roads...

 

[The_Quasar]

speaking of roads... why the hell can I not choose to stop paying maintainance for them? Let them degrade instead of upkeeping the forsaken road to nowhere. My local government seems to have stopped paying maintainance on my roads...

You can... unmake them, then you stop paying for them (but you lose the trade route income).

 

[CoolLizy]

I always thought there should be a trench improvement. Something like you build a trench on a tile, and that tile grants a +10% defense bonus, but also takes away all your movement points when you enter it (except for tanks and other mechanized units). You could set your units up in the trench for a defense bonus, or you could position them right behind it so that melee units are forced to stop right in front of you. It would be sort of like a mini-GW for a single tile, that also grants a defense boost.

Civ Rev had something similar to this. If you had a unit set to defend on a non-city tile for long enough, a defensive structure would pop up around them giving a +100% boost in combat. It would last as long as you left at least one of your units in the tile.

 

[Callonia]

That's the fortify bonus, in civ 5 its currently pu to 50%, fortify for 2 turns, get 50% one turn = 25%.

And a unit fortified in a fort adds another 50% meaning a total 100% bonus

And sayy... if you have a river in front of your fort, go ahead nd tack on another 50% if enemy attack the fort across from the river.

And finally, if it's in a forested hill.. that' sjust evil

My forts never get attacked by the npcs, for a good reason. They'll lose the battle if they did that. xD

I don't understand the hate on forts. They assert positional control in a region. In fact, current game have 3 forts atm. One to keep spainards skittish about attacking rashly, One that was intended for Indian forces but ended up being used against french cuz india died to france.

And a third inactive but defended fort against barbarians and possibly korean troops.


In fact, Spainards was gonna attack me for the third time, but after they saw the fort built, they was like, eh screw this crap lets go somewhere else!

 

[TyBoy]

I think in 5 any amount of rough terrain gives the same benefit, so a forested hill is the same as a hill is the same as a forest.

I will feel silly if I'm wrong about that. I've been operating under that understanding for quite a while now.

 

[callan]

I think in 5 any amount of rough terrain gives the same benefit, so a forested hill is the same as a hill is the same as a forest.

I will feel silly if I'm wrong about that. I've been operating under that understanding for quite a while now.

Forest and hill give separate bonuses so a forested hill tile gives twice the defensive bonus of a lowland forest or bare hill tile.

 

[claestw]

It's actually not easy to find a good spot for a fort if you're packing your cities close together in 3-hex intervals, though. Isn't it always easier to set up defense at a city?

 

[Carazycool]

I think in 5 any amount of rough terrain gives the same benefit, so a forested hill is the same as a hill is the same as a forest.

I will feel silly if I'm wrong about that. I've been operating under that understanding for quite a while now.

That was my understanding too. I remember feeling disappointed that the defensive bonus didn't stack. Can anyone confirm what actually happens with hills/forests?

 

[Melchizedek]

The problem with forts is that an enemy can simply bypass them. They don't assert any control of the region, unless you're lucky enough to have a geographic bottleneck. Hence the desire for some effective form of regional walls, preferably something that works in tandem with forts to make them worth building.

I would be in favor of regional defensive improvements coupled with a reduction in city strength. I do understand the concern about the AI using them poorly, though.

 

[Ajuga]

I would also like some kind of defensive structure that makes enemy melee unit spend all their movement points. Walls would be great early on, replaced by trenches in the late Renaissance era.
Tanks not being affected by trenches.
While we are at it, how about minefields later ingame too?

I'm all in favor of making it easier to defend. Maybe make runaway civs a rare occurrence if the AI can properly use walls, trenches and minefields.

 

[The_Quasar]

I think in 5 any amount of rough terrain gives the same benefit, so a forested hill is the same as a hill is the same as a forest.

I will feel silly if I'm wrong about that. I've been operating under that understanding for quite a while now.

When the game came out, iirc, the defensive bonuses were, a Hill was +25%, a Forest was +50% and a Forested Hill was +75%. However, there have been a number of balancing updates since then, and I'm not sure what the current %s are... going to have to check in game!