War of Paraguay

[luiz]

Originally posted by Sims2789
Just a question: How did Paraguay have a navy, as it is a landlocked country?

Paraguay had ships that travelled through its rivers. The most important rout that Paraguay had with the Ocean, if not the only one, was travelling through the Paraguay river and then through the Plata river, in Argentina.

 

[Somerled]

Just about to finish a fascinating book about Paraguay: "At the Tomb of the Inflatable Pig" by John Gimlette which is a interesting travelogue/history of the country.

Given that I have the book at hand, this quote might help the debate on 'bloodiest conflict'(!): "Of an original population of around 1,300,000, only 221,079 had survived. Of these, only 29,746 were men. 9 out of ever 10 men had perished. It would take nearly seventy-five years to recover population levels." Might not have the greatest absolute number of casualties in Americas (US Civil War as suggested above?) but I think that is a staggering statistic...

Not sure the points about Paraguay's strengths compared to the Allies are correct. This this should help: "There were barely 1,300,000 Paraguayans compared to 10 million Brazilians. Brazil was the second largest empire in the world, and - in theory - her National Guard outnumbered the entire population of Paraguay.
But the contest was not as unequal as it first appeared; in the previous, Lopez had drilled 65,000 men and (if he counted all old men and boys) he could raise 100,000 troops. The Argentine regular army was only 6,000 strong and was scattered through its untamed provinces."

Bolivia also made the mistake of attacking Paraguay in the '30s in what became known as the Chaco War. (The Chaco being the inhospitable region of land in NW Paraguay bordering Bolivia.)

Definitely recommend reading about this country and its unbelievable wars and dictators!

 

[Bombur]

Just about to finish a fascinating book about Paraguay: "At the Tomb of the Inflatable Pig" by John Gimlette which is a interesting travelogue/history of the country.

Given that I have the book at hand, this quote might help the debate on 'bloodiest conflict'(!): "Of an original population of around 1,300,000, only 221,079 had survived. Of these, only 29,746 were men. 9 out of ever 10 men had perished. It would take nearly seventy-five years to recover population levels." Might not have the greatest absolute number of casualties in Americas (US Civil War as suggested above?) but I think that is a staggering statistic...

Not sure the points about Paraguay's strengths compared to the Allies are correct. This this should help: "There were barely 1,300,000 Paraguayans compared to 10 million Brazilians. Brazil was the second largest empire in the world, and - in theory - her National Guard outnumbered the entire population of Paraguay.
But the contest was not as unequal as it first appeared; in the previous, Lopez had drilled 65,000 men and (if he counted all old men and boys) he could raise 100,000 troops. The Argentine regular army was only 6,000 strong and was scattered through its untamed provinces."

Bolivia also made the mistake of attacking Paraguay in the '30s in what became known as the Chaco War. (The Chaco being the inhospitable region of land in NW Paraguay bordering Bolivia.)

Definitely recommend reading about this country and its unbelievable wars and dictators!

-It seems the estimates of 1-2 million deaths are wildly overestimated. Paraguay had a population close to 500,000 and not 1,300,000 people. Casualties among the Paraguay population were close to 200,000 people and not 1-2 million. If these statistics, claimed by most recent works, are correct, I think it is unlikely that the Paraguay Army had 60,000 men before the war, as it would imply in a massive recruitment effort for such a small nation.

 

[zjl56]

This is a good scenario works well in conquests.

 

[Paragua]

With much of what Luiz said, being a Paraguayan I have read a lot on the subject and i can only find A couple of incorrections...
The number of dead....
The real number of allied losses is hugely understimated
Brasilian losses range from...100,000 to 168,000 depending on the sources(mostly black slaves conscripted into de army)
Argentina- 25,000.
Uruguay- 10, 000.
The reason why we don't know the exact number, not even the population of Paraguay at the time is because important documents containing this information was taken to Brasil after the takeover of Asuncion, and they have not been realeased since then, that's were the truth is.

 

[luiz]

With much of what Luiz said, being a Paraguayan I have read a lot on the subject and i can only find A couple of incorrections...
The number of dead....
The real number of allied losses is hugely understimated
Brasilian losses range from...100,000 to 168,000 depending on the sources(mostly black slaves conscripted into de army)
Argentina- 25,000.
Uruguay- 10, 000.
The reason why we don't know the exact number, not even the population of Paraguay at the time is because important documents containing this information was taken to Brasil after the takeover of Asuncion, and they have not been realeased since then, that's were the truth is.

Hey it'a great to see a paraguayan playing this scenario

As for the documents, I agree entirely with you. Recently there is a debate withing the Army about them, and I think there are real chances of them beign released in one year or two.

It's ridiculous that the Brazilian government still keeps secrecy of a war that ended almost a century and a half ago. Both the paraguayans and the brazilians are entitled to know the entire truth.

 

[Xander2015]

Triple Alliance

When Communications Entered the War
Marcelo S. Alencar, Thiago T. Alencar and Juraci F. Galdino��
Federal University of Campina Grande, Campina Grande, PB, Brazil

Military Institute of Technology, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
Abstract—One of the first military applications of the telegraph, for tactical
purposes, took place during the war between Brazil and Paraguay, from
1864 to 1870. General Solano Lopez managed to command his troops from
his campsite using a telegraph system. When Brazil declared war against
Paraguay, attention was turned exclusively to the south, and a line connecting
Rio de Janeiro to the province of Rio Grande do Sul was built in only
six months. This paper discusses the first use of electrical communication
for military purposes in Latin America from a historical perspective.
Keywords—Telegraphy. Triple Alliance War, War between Brazil, Argentina
Uruguay and Paraguay. Communications during the war.
I. INTRODUCTION

 

[Balam]

A pretty good article, although I didn't understand that post at first

 

[llama]

i must say, this war has been a little amplified. from what have i heard, the "2/3 of the population killed" among many other .. er... tricky informations all come from a book, written by a paraguayan journalist, something chiavenato or chiavenatto. anyway, some years later another writer has written a book, uncovering chiavenato's lies. yet, we learn in school all of that you posted, and even that england has motivated the war. actually, it seems that in the century that contains the paraguay war, it has been found 1 or 2 mentions to paraguay in england's files, parliament, i don't recall.

 

[Civlord]

e isso ae kra
finalmente outro portuga aki na area
e esses americano que vao toma no cu!
euayageyfg!

Hahahahahaha!! Funny thing! Nobody here understood it really, I think.

Edit - Well, perhaps the brazilians did... I am not the only one to laugh from this kind of joke here!

 

[camilociv]

Man where are the scenario?(War of Paraguay)

 

[Red Door]

Well, the scenario is two years old....
Maybe you should play scenario that still has files.

 

[Slaughter]

Originally Posted by Paragua
With much of what Luiz said, being a Paraguayan I have read a lot on the subject and i can only find A couple of incorrections...
The number of dead....
The real number of allied losses is hugely understimated
Brasilian losses range from...100,000 to 168,000 depending on the sources(mostly black slaves conscripted into de army)
Argentina- 25,000.
Uruguay- 10, 000.
The reason why we don't know the exact number, not even the population of Paraguay at the time is because important documents containing this information was taken to Brasil after the takeover of Asuncion, and they have not been realeased since then, that's were the truth is.


Hey it'a great to see a paraguayan playing this scenario

As for the documents, I agree entirely with you. Recently there is a debate withing the Army about them, and I think there are real chances of them beign released in one year or two.

It's ridiculous that the Brazilian government still keeps secrecy of a war that ended almost a century and a half ago. Both the paraguayans and the brazilians are entitled to know the entire truth.

Yeah, they should release the documents to reveal to the entire world how much of asskicking we did in Paraguay.

Oh by the way, what kind of Allies are Argentina and Uruguay? They leaved Brazil to do THEY dirty job ALONE! Caxias comanded the Triple Aliance's armies far better tham that loser that was the Argentinan president.

Oh, by the way, it would be fun to know that there's Argentinans and Uruguayans playing this scenario as well. Maybe you could do a scenario showing a modern war in 2050 called "War of Paraguay: Paraguayan Vengeance". This scenario would show a superpower Paraguay that in future, decided to duke it out with they old rivals. Maybe the country's economy recuperated and had great grown. And them they tried to fight Brazil, Argentina and Uruguai again.

Oh, and sorry for the gravedigging. I will play this scenario after I awake. It looks good.

 

[A.T.S]

Hahahahahaha!! Funny thing! Nobody here understood it really, I think.

Edit - Well, perhaps the brazilians did... I am not the only one to laugh from this kind of joke here!

No solo los Brasileros....

 

[edumoraes]

Hey, i've just altered the original version of the scenario. There were some historical mistakes..

I:

-Set the number of rifleman of the 4 coutries (Par, Uru, Bra, Arg) equal to those in the start of the war, in which 1000 men = 1 rifleman or 2 cavalry (still, countries begin with very few cavalries), plus 1 rifleman per city.
-The remaining countries have 1 rifleman per city. They didn't had organized armies.
-Set the number of ships in the 4 countries right. 1 ship = 1 frigate. The remaining countries have 1 frigate.
-Created the Voluntário da Pátria (Country Volunteer), brazil's UU: Rifleman with -1 health and half the shield cost. (they were the poorly trained slaves\ex-slaves used by brazil in most of the war). Note> They DON'T replace the rifleman!
-Created the Soldado Paraguayo, Paraguay's UU: Rifleman with +1 health. Before the war, Paraguay had communal farms that gave quality food acces to most of the population. The average height of the paraguay soldier was around 4 inch higher than the brazilians. Every soldier could read, and they used intensively newspapers (in guarany, not spanish) to increase the soldiers morale, making jokes of brazilians. They were better than the triple alliance soldiers.
-Changed country colors (is nice to see a light blue argentina and celestial blue uruguay, among other color changes) =D
-Changed some city owners. Bolivia gained 3 cities because at the time it owned the Acre region wich was in Brazil's possession. Paraguay was quite big in the earlier version, and it wasnt. I gave Capitain... to Bolivia, more realistic borders then. Chile didn't owned arica and antofogasta. It was conquered in the Pacific War*. Arica was peruvian and antofogasta bolivian. Paraguay didn't had borders with uruguay. In fact, that's why Argentina entered the war, it refused to allow paraguay to cross it's territory in order to attack uruguay, so i gave colonia and artigas to the argentinians.
-added Galapagos to the equatorians and ciudad do panama to the colombians (panama was colombian at the time).
-Increased some city cultural values in order to alter territories
-Put the 3 allies under locked alliance

AND the great new thing: Added Pacific War features: In 1880 Chile fought the bolivian and peruvian alliance in order to conquer territories. I know that it occurred 15 years after the start of the paraguay war, but why not? I think it's cooler this way.
-Set the number of rifleman equal to the troops used in the begginnig of the war: chile 6000 thousand man\bolivia&peru7000 (3 rifleman to bolivia and 4 to peru). Chile also had some cavalry and a cannon
-Chile had a great navy, bolivia had none and peru had a very poor one. But Peru had a famous ship that defeated 16!!! chilean ships before destroyed. So i put it as an elite ironclad. As i didn't found the exact numbers for chilean navy, i put 16 ships (i know it's wrong) with some ironclads, but mostly frigates. Although chile was said to have a strong and modern navy.
-Put bolivia and peru in a locked alliance at war with chile.

now.. i'm quite a noob.. how do i upload the file and wich files need to be uploaded? only the .bix file is enough? NOTE: When i say i created units, i just changed the stats of the rifleman.. I could use a black rifleman for the Voluntário da Pátria. And a different rifleman for the Soldado Paraguayo..

 

[GeneralN20]

AND the great new thing: Added Pacific War features

There were a bunch of other wars that happened in South America, not only this was of the Triple Alliance.

For instance, for some time after all the nations in South America were set as independent, Gran Colombia and Peru got stuck in a war which resulted in the complete establishment of the country of Bolivia.

Of course the war was really convenient for neither Peru or Gran Colombia because this war--in part--led to the break-up of Gran Colombia into 3 new nations, and Peru was never really able to get back Bolivia. Yet, Gran Colombia didn't lose territory, but the territory Gran Colombia got from Peru was mostly regained by Peru whom saw the break-up of Gran Colombia as a chance to take back a whole bunch of land that they had lost (Which they did, except for a strip of land that still belongs to Colombia).

Then there's also the various wars Peru and Ecuador had over the territory Peru regained.


BUT, more important to this scenario is the Chincha Islands war (Peru-Chile vs. Spain War thing).

Chincha Isl. War: 1864 to 1866.
War of the Triple Alliance: 1864 to 1870.

The Peruvians and the Chileans worked together and in the end beat the Spanish. This war was really a prelude to the War of the Pacific (Which happened over the Saltpeter and other resources found in the Atacama region of Peru, Bolivia, and Chile). But it did show the strength Peru and Chile had gained since independence.

Chile had a great navy, bolivia had none and peru had a very poor one.

The Chilean and Peruvian navies had gotten more experience from the Chincha Isl. War. The Peruvian navy implemented new ships (The ironclads) while the Chilean navy was still mainly composed of wooden ships.

But Peru had a famous ship that defeated 16!!! chilean ships before destroyed.

The Huascar (A U.S. bought Ironclad), was not only very technologically advanced, but it was under the leadership of one of the best naval commanders the Pacific had ever seen. The Chilean navy indeed had more ships to their disposal, but the fact most were wooden made it not-so-good, the constant victories led to the "legend" of the Huascar to be formed (Just to say that its commander actually rescued the people who were drowning from the enemy ship, instead of killing them with bayonets as it was accustomed, and later even let them go back to Chile). For 5 months the Huascar held the whole Chilean invasion of Peru and Bolivia to begin.

At the end, though, luck ran out for the Huascar. The Chilean navy finally was capable of setting a good strategy to capture the Huascar, and I think they did so with a battleship (Not the advanced modern ones though, probably one of the early types), but they also had the Huascar surrounded with another battleship and 3 or 2 corvettes (So it would have taken a bunch of good hits and amazing commanding skills for the Huascar to have won, and to the ship's bad luck, Miguel Grau--Huascar's star commander--got killed in the first few cannon shots by the opposing ship).

Although chile was said to have a strong and modern navy.

Chile had a lot of wooden ships, which was what they used at first. The Chilean Navy back then wasn't the best out there, by the way. This was mainly because Chile really didn't see the benefits of having a good navy, and thus Peru, with it's also rather weak navy, was able to get an upper hand here with better armored ships and more-advanced weaponry (Quality beating quantity, in other words).

BUT, Chile eventually realized that they need to improve on their navy to achieve victory (So, while Peru kept going with the Huascar and pushing their luck, Chile kept planning and improving, and the planning and improving proved to be more successful). Therefore, after the war, Chile finally consolidated its Navy (Thus making their navy more modern and thus stronger than before).




I'm doing a similar scenario to this one, but it covers all of the Americas (North and South). The problem I'm having with that is my computer being unable to launch it (So I can see how it works with the game going on). But I'm sure I'll soon be able to put it here in the forums.

 

[edumoraes]

Most of what i did, was based on wikipedia research.. i've just changed luiz's scenario..

I don't know if u played it, but it covers all south america.. I believe that in 1864 (start of the paraguay war) gran colombia was past..

The pacific war would be only 15 years after.. but i believe it would be an interesting feature to add..

I think that maybe giving only frigates to the chileans will be ok.. Peru has 2 ironclads (Huascar -elite and Independencia- regular), and a few frigates..

I was thinking about changing riflemans attack value to 5, because it's almost impossible to conquer anything with them.. and they were the main characters in land battles..

I think it would be hard to put the spanish in the game.. maybe giving them one city, an army and a navy with no unit cost already at war with peru and chile.. =P


what about your scenario? tell me more =)

add me in msn edugmmoraes@hotmail.com

 

[GeneralN20]

I don't know if u played it, but it covers all south america..

Yes, that's why I mentioned the Chincha Isl. War. I played this scenario, and it was relatively fun to play.

I believe that in 1864 (start of the paraguay war) gran colombia was past..

It was. But it was an important event (The break-up mainly) since it caused some problems (Due to unsettled border disputes).

The pacific war would be only 15 years after.. but i believe it would be an interesting feature to add..

But then that would be another scenario (different to this one, although based from this one). I personally think adding more realism to the conflicts happening in South America to this scenario would actually make for a neater one.

I think it would be hard to put the spanish in the game.. maybe giving them one city, an army and a navy with no unit cost already at war with peru and chile.. =P

Lol. Well, that's why it helped to have the complete map of the Americas. I gave Spain cities in the Caribbean and set part of their navy in South America so the war could take place. I also gave the Atacama region valuable resources that would eventually make for a war to occur (perhaps even if the player isn't playing as one of those nations).

I also even added the U.S. Civil War into the thing.


But perhaps it's because of everything I've added that my slow computer doesn't want to load the game.....

 

[edumoraes]

what's the size of your game?

Maybe u could allow the files to be downloaded.. and i could even give u some help with your map..

Are u experienced with scenario making? Did u created UU's, techs and other new stuff?

 

[edumoraes]

about the former gran colombia, u don't need to worry.. they will randonly and eventually declare war to each other.. maybe altering their agressiveness..

remember: Panama was colombian.. I saw people make mistake about that in other scenario..