Warhammer Week Review

[Grakl]

Good to hear. I was wracking my brain for a reason it would be specific to WH mod. I'll root around and see if I can figure it out. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[Ahriman]

What I meant was; I've never seen the pips, in any version of Civ4 or any civmod.

 

[Arexack_heretic]

I've seen those pips all the time, they denote ther number of units in a stack.
I haven't seen them alligning with the facing direction of the models as is happening here though.
They invariably are drawn just above the unit flag.

It may have to do with the unit scaling in the art defines,
I'm saying this because of the dragon. this is a big unit.

strange behaviour though, certainly a bug if we can reproduce it.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

and whats more in that warhammer screenshot everything is WAYYYYYYYYYY too big, the mines and resources and units are al huge! not to mention the moot, vortex and dragon bones could you check you game settings? perhaps you accidentally turned one of those on?

 

[Grakl]

I don't recall ever changing the ArtDefines xml nor messing with any of the xml. I went through all the options including the graphics options and finagled them to no effect. So I'm at a loss for why the pips and scaling is the way it is only for WH Mod. Something somewhere ><.

I got ambitious last night after failing to correct the issue and decided to fire up WH Mod in my xml mod editor I worked on and quit awhile ago. Oops, heh heh, had to redownload the WH Mod installer. Apparently ya'll have a lot of undefined txt keys and my editor didn't handle them correctly (Note to self: backup your shtuff). Also, I noticed there's a few Civs with redundant PIKEMAN units tags in the units list.

Anyways, I wouldn't worry too much about it. It's apparently mostly specific to myself or my system as no one has seen it happen to them. Thanks for looking into it regardless.

 

[Grakl]

Is there any plans to implement the Great General as it is in FfH2? IIRC you can add them to a unit and it receives +1 str and +1 xp per fight to the owner. They can also be moved between units at your digression. I dig it and it's very Warhammery regarding independent characters like heroes being added to units. I've never really liked the current Great General inherited from Civ4 with the free units, +build rate, or fixed xp splurge. Just curious, I wince when I see wonders that offer GPP towards generals.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

Anyways, I wouldn't worry too much about it. It's apparently mostly specific to myself or my system as no one has seen it happen to them. Thanks for looking into it regardless.

Its a very strange bug, im not too sure what could be causing it... ill take a look at the art files when i get a chance... incidentally, what OS are you running?

Is there any plans to implement the Great General as it is in FfH2? IIRC you can add them to a unit and it receives +1 str and +1 xp per fight to the owner. They can also be moved between units at your digression. I dig it and it's very Warhammery regarding independent characters like heroes being added to units. I've never really liked the current Great General inherited from Civ4 with the free units, +build rate, or fixed xp splurge. Just curious, I wince when I see wonders that offer GPP towards generals.

There has been a fair ammount of discussion about the way generals spawn and usingthem to represent Heroes (not Lords which are basically FfH style heroes). if you have any more ideas id love to hear them

 

[Grakl]

I'm running XP, so I havn't tried the patch ya'll listed unfortunately.

I ended up starting another game as Bretonnians. Turned out to be quite the interesting game. Once you are able to start generating Knight's Errant you can really get a good cavalry army going. I mainly moved them around in a stack supported by Men-at-Arms and a few field trebuchets. I clearly hadn't played them to where they are a powerhouse. With the cavalry speed you can easily send units back to the homeland for barbarian invasions if need be. Add in some colorful banners and a little more unique looking unit models and you have a dag good civ done.

I really dug the XP upgrading mechanic (i.e. No stock Knights of the Realm) required to support the Bretonnian army. Very reminiscent of Ogre Battle and Fire Emblem. My only gripe is that you need to send your units back home to upgrade (as is typical with civ4). This is mostly game play related, I don't know the ramifications on lore nor game balance.

Next up I'd like to either try the Wood Elves or Dwarves. I generally try to stay away from Dwarves since I've never met a dwarven player (DnD, etc...) that doesn't play one as a cliche drunk Scot (kind of killed the whole fantasy race for meh). Warhammer tabletop they're a little more bearable since they're pretty damn ded ard looking. I wish I had some dwarven suggestions for ya'll but I really don't know them all that well other than they have dwarf slayers and some nasty equipment.

 

[Ahriman]

Yeah, the Bretonnians are a late-game powerhouse, with their massive arsenals of late-game knights.

The issue of upgrade requirements is an interesting one, because of micromanagement hassle and AI performance.

I tend to be of the opinion that level requirements for a few units to upgrade (mages->archmage, knight errant->knight of the realm) are fine, but that building requirements (whether for archmages or knights) are just a bad idea. They're frustrating to do for no real gameplay purpose - particularly for the elven or college mages that can only do so with a particular Wonder - and the AI is never able to manage them.

I'd stay away from dwarves for now, since they really aren't implemented yet, and lack any particular flavor. Wood elves are better.

But Warhammer Dwarves are scottish dwarves, more so than in almost any other setting. (High Elves are RP/"BBC English", greenskins are east end london/"estuary english" types, etc. - british isles accent stereotypes are a pretty core part of warhammer).

 

[Humakty]

I don't get the stuff about dwarfs being scottish and the like. The Empire for example seems to be inspired, rather massively indeed, by the Holy Roman Empire. The Elves story seems copy pasted from Tolkien. Only the orcs are orginal (mushroom doom warriors anyone ?).
So could anyone explain those damn references to someone who plays RPG in french ?

 

[Grakl]

Does the team have a status report anywhere? It's easy to tell which civilizations are are more or less done or playable. But it would be nice to know which ones are up next for design in case we can offer any input. Or if ya'll are keeping your cards close to the vest a general overview of what mechanics ya'll are looking at would be nice. I hate giving incohesive input or where it isn't applicable and will get lost in the tide.

Just to keep ya'll updated with a bug I've found beyond general playtesting is:

1) Duplicate XML for the Pikeman entry in the civilizationinfos.xml that may be causing the same unit to appear in the build list multiple times.

 

[Ahriman]

Well, everything is up for suggestions....
There are some things in the our private forum, but the main faction designs are in the threads below:
I would imagine that the next factions to be implemented (well) are Kislev, Orcs, Goblins and Dwarves. Along with some changes to high elves, norsca/kurgan/hung and dark elves.
Then probably Vampire counts (sylvania and lamia), Araby, Cathay, Nippon, and maybe Ind.
Then eventually in the distance, chaos dwarves, lizardmen, beastmen, ogres, hobgoblins and amazons.

Threads:
Kislev http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=292506
Dwarves: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=291330
Estalia, Tilea, Cathay, Nippon, Ind, Araby, Skaven
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=290972
Vampire counts: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=291659
Tomb Kings http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=293441

Empire, Brettonnia, Wood elves, chaos tribes, Greenskins: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=292016


Also check:
Tech tree redesign
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=293834&page=3 (post 58)
AND

Spoiler :

There's no easy way to include all the information in this kind of format because of all the double counting; how do you show a tech that leads to 2 or more other techs? How do you show leading to with OR requirements?

The easiest way to describe is probably to show requirements and Allows for every tech.

R: means requires.
0 means nothing.
A: means allows.

AND and OR requirements are shown in requirements, but not in allowances.

The techs alone (no effects) in this format (each tech has only a single entry):
Hopefully I don't screw this up. And a few of these are slightly different to in the old version.

Spoiler :

Basic techs:

Fishing. R:0. A:crafting, sailing.
Agriculture. R: 0. A: crafting, animal husbandry, calendar.
Wild paths. R: 0. (given free at start). A: 0
Roads. R: 0. (given free at start) A: Imperial roads.
Hunting: R: 0. A: Animal Husbandry, Archery, warfare.
Mining: R: 0. A: Bronze working.
Mysticism. R: 0. A: Ancient Lore, Calendar, Ceremonial Burial, nature lore.

Crafting. R: Fishing OR Agriculture). A: Masonry, trade.
Animal husbandry. R: Agriculture OR hunting. A: Horseback riding, Tracking.
Calendar. R: Agriculture OR Mysticism. A: Astrology, Mathematics. (Could be agriculture AND mysticism, or just agriculture.)
Ancient Lore. R: Mysticism. A: Philosophy, Writing.
Archery. R: Hunting. A: Bowyers, military discipline.
Ceremonial Burial. R: Mysticism.

Metal working line:

Spoiler :

Bronze working. R: mining. A: Metal casting, military discipline.
Metal casting. R: Bronze working. A: Iron working.
Iron working. R: Bronze working. A: Advanced Smithing, military tradition, machinery.
Advanced Smithing. R: Iron working. A: Meteoric Iron, Steel.
Meteoric Iron. R: Advanced Smithing AND Astrology.
Steel. R: Advanced Smithing AND advanced engineering. A: 0

Tactics line:

Spoiler :

Warfare. R: Hunting. A: Military discipline, words of salvation,.
Military Discipline. R: Warfare AND bronze working AND (Archery OR horseback riding). A: Tactics, monster breeding, bowyers, stirrups, Lordship, Tyranny.
Tactics. R: Military discipline AND (Tyranny OR Lordship) AND Archery AND horseback riding. A: Mercenary contracts, military tradition.
Mercenary contracts. R: Tactics AND currency. A: 0.
Military tradition. R: Tactics AND (Civil Service OR Feudalism) AND Stirrups AND Iron working AND bowyers. A: Rifling, Advanced doctrines 1.

Archery line:

Spoiler :

Bowyers. R: Archery, military discipline. A: Advanced Archery, military tradition.
Advanced Archery. R: Bowyers. A: 0.

Recon line:

Spoiler :

Nature lore. R: Hunting AND mysticsm. A: Tracking, Monster taming, Lore of Athel Loren, Lore of Life, elemental magic.
Tracking. R: Nature lore. A: Monster bonding, elemental mastery.

Beast taming line:

Spoiler :

Monster taming. R: Nature lore. A: Monster breeding, Lore of Beasts.
Monster breeding. R: Monster taming, military discipline.
Monster bonding. R: Monster breeding, tracking. A: 0.

Cavalry line:

Spoiler :

Horseback riding. R: animal husbandry. A: Stirrups, Trade, military discipline, tactics.
Stirrups. R: Horseback riding, military discipline. A: Tournaments, military tradition.
Tournaments. R: Stirrups, feudalism. A: 0.

Trade line:

Spoiler :

Trade. R: Sailing OR horseback riding. A: Currency, navigation.
Currency. R: Trade AND metal casting AND Lordship. A: Guilds, mercenary contracts, civil service.
Guilds. R: Currency AND (Civil service OR feudalism). A: Banking.
Banking. R: Guilds. A: Economics.
Economics. R: Banking. A: 0.

Construction line:

Spoiler :

Masonry. R: Crafting. A: construction.
Construction. R: Masonry. A:Sanitation, Irrigation, Engineering, Imperial Roads.
Sanitation. R: Construction. A: Advanced Engineering.
Irrigation. R: Construction. A: Advanced Engineering.
Imperial Roads. R: Construction, Roads, Civil service.
Engineering. R: Construction AND Machinery. A: Rifling, Advanced engineering, advanced doctrines 1.
Advanced engineering. R: Engineering AND civil service AND irrigation AND sanitation. A: Steel, Steam Power.

Chemistry line:

Spoiler :

Alchemy. R: Metal casting AND Philosophy. A: Cannons, lore of metal.
Cannons. R: Alchemy AND Invention. A: Rifling.
Rifling. R: Cannons AND military tradition AND engineering. A: 0.

Mechanisation line:

Spoiler :

Mathematics. R: Masonry AND Philosophy. A: Invention.
Invention. R: Mathematics AND construction. A: Machinery.
Machinery. R: Invention AND iron working. A: engineering.
Steam power. Req: Advanced engineering. A: 0.

Naval line:

Spoiler :

Sailing. R: Fishing. A: Trade, Navigation.
Astrology. R: Calendar. A: Navigation, Meteoric iron, Lore of Heavens.
Navigation. R: Sailing, Writing, Astrology. A: Astronomy.
Astronomy. R: Navigation. A: 0.

Government line:

Spoiler :

Lordship. R: Military discipline. A: Currency, Feudalism.
Tyranny. R: Military discipline. A: Feudalism, Fanaticism.
Feudalism. R: Lordship OR Tyranny. A: Guilds, Tournaments.
Civil service. R: Currency, literacy. A: Guilds, advanced engineering, imperial roads, lore of shadows.

Religion line:

Spoiler :

Ceremonial burial. R: Ancient lore. A: Priesthood, Eternal Life, lore of death.
Philosophy. R: Ancient lore. A: Words of Salvation, Corruption of chaos, Priesthood, Alchemy.
Words of Salvation. R: Warfare AND Philosophy. A: Lore of Light.
Corruption of Chaos. R: Philosophy AND raw magic. A: Bloodlust of Khorne, Gifts of the Plague one, Lore of Change, Slaanesh's pleasures.
Eternal life. R: Philosophy AND ceremonial burial. A: Necromancy.
Priesthood. R: Philosophy AND ceremonial burial. A: Literacy, fanaticism.
Fanaticism. R: Priesthood AND Tyranny. A: Advanced doctrines 1.

Education line:

Spoiler :

Writing. R: Ancient lore. A: Literacy, navigation, Winds of magic.
Literacy. R: Writing AND priesthood. A: Education.
Education. R: Literacy. A: Arcane Lore.

Elemental magic line:

Spoiler :

Elemental magic. R: Raw magic AND nature lore. A: Master of Fire, Master of Air, Master of Water, Master of Earth.
Master of Fire. R: Elemental magic. A: Elemental mastery.
Master of Air. R: Elemental magic. A: Elemental mastery.
Master of Water. R: Elemental magic. A: Elemental mastery.
Master of Earth. R: Elemental magic. A: Elemental mastery.
Elemental Mastery. R: (Master of Air OR Master of Fire OR Master of Water OR Master of Earth.) AND tracking.

Winds of magic line:

Spoiler :

Winds of magic. R: Raw magic AND writing. A: Lore of death, lore of fire, lore of shadow, lore of metal, lore of beasts, lore of light, lore of life, lore of heavens, arcane lore.
Lore of death. R: ceremonial burial AND winds of magic. A: 0.
Lore of fire. R: Literacy AND winds of magic. A: 0.
Lore of Shadow. R: Civil service AND winds of magic. A: 0.
Lore of beasts. R: monster taming AND winds of magic. A: 0.
LOre of metal. R: alchemy AND winds of magic. A: 0.
Lore of life. R: nature lore AND winds of magic. A: 0.
Lore of light. R: words of salvation AND winds of magic. A: 0.
Lore of heavens. R: astrology AND winds of magic. A: 0.
Arcane lore. Req: Winds of magic AND education. A: 0.

Chaos line:

Spoiler :

Bloodlust of khorne. R: Corruption of chaos. A: Chaos incursion.
Gifts of the plagued one. R: Corruption of chaos. A: Chaos incursion.
Lore of change. R: Corruption of chaos. A: Chaos incursion.
Slaanesh's pleasures. R: Corruption of chaos. A: Chaos incursion.
Chaos incursion. R: Bloodlust of khorne OR Gifts of the plagued one OR Lore of change OR Slaanesh's pleasures. A: End times.
End times. R: Bloodlust of khorne. A: 0.

Other Magic line:

Spoiler :

Raw magic. R: 0. A: winds of magic, elemental magic, lore of athel loren, high magic, dark magic, necromancy, WAAGH!, magic of the horned rat, gut magic, magic of the old ones.
Lore of athel lore. R: Raw magic AND nature lore. A: 0.
High magic. R: Raw magic. A: 0.
Dark magic. R: Raw magic. A: 0.
Necromancy. R: Raw magic AND eternal life. A: Arcane mastery.
WAAGH! R: raw magic. A: Arcane mastery.
MAgic of the horned rat. R: raw magic. A: Arcane mastery.
Gut magic. R: raw magic. A: arcane mastery.
Magic of the old ones. R: raw magic. A: arcane mastery.
Arcane mastery. R: Necromancy OR WAAGH! OR MAgic of the horned rat. OR Gut magic OR Magic of the old ones. A: 0.

Future tech line:

Spoiler :

Advanced doctrines 1. Requires: Military tradition tech, requires fanaticism tech, requires engineering tech,
Advanced doctrines 2. Requires advanced doctrines 1 tech.
Advanced doctrines 3. Requires advanced doctrines 2 tech.

Combat system redesign

Spoiler :

Melee line:
Axeman warband. Strength 4, can use wartats/bronze/iron weapons. +25% vs melee units, +10% city attack.
Spearman warband. Strength 4. Can use wartats/bronze/iron weapons. +25% vs shock cavalry units, 10% vs chariot units.
Militia Swordsman. Strength 5. Can use bronze/iron/steel/meteoric iron weapons. +25% vs melee units, +10% city attack.
Militia Spearman. Strength 5. +25% vs shock cavalry units. +10% vs chariot units. Can use bronze/iron/steel/meteoric iron weapons.
Pikemen. Strength 5/7. +25% vs melee units. +25% vs chariot units. +40% vs shock cavalry units. Can use bronze/iron/steel/meteoric iron weapons.
Royal guard. Strength 8. Can use bronze/iron/steel/meteoric iron weapons. Bodyguard. +25% vs melee units.

Archery line:
All can bombard (as current).
Archer warband. Strength 3/5. Can use wartats, quality bows. +25% city defence. +25% hill defense. 1 First Strike. +25% vs missile cavalry.
Militia archers. Strength 4/6. Can use wartats/quality bows 1-2 First strikes. +40% city defense. +25% hills defense. +25% vs missile cavalry.
Crossbowmen. Strength 7. Can use meteoric iron/quality bows. 1 First strike. +20% city defense. +20% hills defence. +40% vs melee units.
Longbowmen. Strength 6/8. Can use meteoric iron/quality bows. 1-2 First strikes. +25% city defense. +25% hills defense. +25% vs missile cavalry.
Handgunners: Strength 7/9. Can use meteoric iron. Can NOT use bronze/iron weapons. 1-2 first strikes. +25% vs melee units, +25% hills defense. +25% vs missile cavalry.

Shock cavalry line:
All units have terrain penalties as current. -25% forest/ancientforest/jungle/deepjungle/wetland/marsh attack, -25% forest/ancientforest/jungle/deepjungle/wetland/marsh defense, does not get defensive bonuses.
Ancient cavalry. Strength 4, 2 moves. Can use bronze/iron weapons. Can withdraw from combat 15%. +25% vs chariots, +25% vs missile units, +25% vs missile cavalry.
Lancers. Strength 6/4, 3 moves. Can use bronze/iron/steel/meteoric iron weapons. Can withdraw from combat 25%, +25% vs missile units, +25% vs chariots, +50% vs siege units.
Knights. Strength 10/7. 2 moves. Can use bronze/iron/steel/meteoric iron weapons. Can withdraw from combat 15%. 25% vs archers.

Chariots:
All units have terrain penalties as current. Cannot enter marsh, jungle. -25% wetland attack/wetland defense. -50% forest/ancientforest/deepjungle attack, -50% forest/ancientforest/jungle/deepjungle defense
Chariot Strength 5/3, 2 moves. Can get bronze/iron/steel/meteoric iron weapons. Can withdraw from combat (25% chance). +25% vs melee units.
Warchariot. 10/4, 2 moves. Can get bronze/iron/steel/meteoric iron weapons. Can withdraw from combat (25% chance). +25% vs melee units.

Missile cavalry line:
All units have terrain penalties as current. -25% forest/ancientforest/jungle/deepjungle/wetland/marsh attack, -25% forest/ancientforest/jungle/deepjungle/wetland/marsh defense, does not get defensive bonuses.
Horsearcher warband. Strength 7, 3 moves. Can use quality bows, meteoric iron. +25% vs melee units. Flank attack vs siege units. Can withdraw from combat 30%.
(some horsearchers UUs will get flank attack vs melee units as well).
Cavalry. Strength 10/8. 2 moves. Can use meteoric iron. +25% vs melee units. Can withdraw from combat 30%. Flank attack vs siege units.

Hunters/rangers redesign http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=293049

Salvation and Chaos religious units
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=290986&page=3

 

[Grakl]

Dag I have a lot of reading to do. Thanks a bunch for compiling it all!

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

i would suggest the woodelves with a strong focus on archer mage and beast unit lines