Warmongering for Builders (at higher levels)

[cv431410]

I think you're right... It's all war unless you go for the cultural win. I wonder if the game was built that way on purpose. Makes sense...

Yes, the game is built that way by its scoring system:

50%: population
20%: land
20%: technology
10%: Others

You cannot have a large population without many cities, You cannot have many cities without wars.

 

[The-Hawk]

Wow, lots of activity already on this post. Some comments:

A problem I often come across in my games is deciding when to reasearch Iron Working. I find myself looking at the techs other than Iron Working on the science trail and seeing them as more beneficial. Obviosuly every game is different, but for general purposes, when you reasearch IW, what other techs do you have???

Also, I again can't push myself to war without seige units. Do you generally start wars before construction, and finish them after? Is it better to wait untill cats to invade a city and untill then just pester them, or should you go right ahead and attack with your Swordsmen?

If I am playing Caesar (and I usually do), I will beeline to IW. If you aren't going to get Praets up quickly, then there isn't much point in playing Caesar. If I am playing other civs, and I have copper, I most likely will slot worker improvement techs in before IW. I'm not a huge fan of swords, perfectly happy to go to war with Axes. Of course, if I don't discover copper nearby, I go right for IW.

As far as cats, I always go to war before I have cats. In fact, I am so focused on warring (my early cities are all producing units) my tech pace tends to crawl, which means cats show up relatively late. I may be too slow getting to them... I'm thinking of trying a strategy that leaves on city as a super science center while the others produce units.

This is the only item I approach a little differently. I don't try to trim *all* of my neighbors back. I do want friends later on and actively work on triangle diplomacy from the start...

For this reason I'll try to eliminate a civ in one war, if at all possible, to reduce the number of diplo penalties I'll get for "You declared war on our friend."

I've always believed diplomacy to be the weakest part of my game. This sounds like an excellent thought process. Something else for me to try!

A bit by the way and newbie, but, as a "builder" do you go for a spaceship/ diplomatic/ cultural victory. My question is (although some waring is nessecary) do builders go for domination victories ??

To me a builder tends to focus on economy, infrastructure, and technical advancement. At lower or middle layers, a builder can very effectively go for domination. This is how I used to play... I was a builder, but I often went for domination. Not a problem until you play immortal or deity where the AI builds much faster than you.

What's the 'usual' build-order for a warmonger at the start of the game?

I don't really have a usual build order. It depends on the map and civ. I often build a warrior first so that my pop grows to 2, but if I have a gold mine and have mining as a start tech, I'll build a worker first to mine it right away. As VoiceOfUnreason said, my build order is geared to getting axes up asap. But I also contend my first build decisions would be the same if I was going for a culture win. Your first few moves are all about getting that first city productive regardless of your strategic goal.

What wonders, if any, do warmongerers go for? Can you get Stonehenge or Pyramids? Pyramids would cost you major axemen.

At emperor and up, I never go for wonders. I'd rather have the axemen. Besides, the AI will beat me to them anyhow. At middle levels, when warmongering, I find pyramids to be a pretty tempting target.

im confused i thought i was a warmonger but i try to build a near overwhelming force and have enough units in key positions, does this make me a builder??... I fight wars that i could win and will try my hardest to have the least amount of casualties... more units that survive less i have to build and the units will have alot of experience...so early war for me would depend on what the AI has on defense and their city defense bonus and what civ i am.. but i only play on normal and sometimes prince

Sounds like you are a warmonger . There is nothing wrong with building overwhelming force. My only point is at higher levels, you don't have the time. The AI's force is growing faster than yours. I agree about minimizing casualties, its hard to build an army if you are replacing casualties all the time. On the other hand, I am not afraid to lose units. Since my first wars are pre-cats, I expect my first wave of attackers to suffer casualties... they may not even be at 50% odds. This is why your stack attacking a city needs to have enough units to go through the defenders twice.

This thread shows one thing: with the current system, warmongerer have a VERY LARGE advantage on builder on higher levels. Moreover, it seems being a builder on the highest levels is close to impossible.
Though I like to wage war a lot, I think it's a bit sad really. Pathways to victory are not as diverse as I would want them to be on higher level (or as the game designer advertised...).

I suspect this is true, although I really haven't tried anything but domination/conquest at higher levels. I know some people have scored non-military deity wins (check the HOF), but as Melkongla noted, I suspect they still needed to do some warmongering to trim back the AI's. That's something else I plan to try!

It's not a proper game of Civ if there's no war!

Obviously, you aren't a builder at heart.

 

[Woobi]

Well good news...

Today I tried a Prince game (a level lower than I normall play). On Prince I am constiantly able to not go to war and win the game.

However, this time I tried my hand at an early war with Fredrick, who probably would have attacked me later anyhow. Needless to say, with the tips I found on this thread, it went very smoothly. I decided to go with Axe's instead of Swordsmen. Luckily, I was able to get to Fred as he was about to hook up his Iron, I stopped that and proceeded to dwindle him down. I actually was able to kill him off using Axemen vs Archers at first, then Cat's for his capital.

After that I had a lot of territory and while my science was lower than I usually like it, I was able to accelerate much faster in the coming turns and won the game in my fastest Space Race yet.


What's the point of this post?

I'm not sure, but it might be a good idea for all you builders to drop a level to practice war, then go back up. It seems to have worked for me...

 

[jn10091981]

I almost always play on prince with ceaser. Used to go ghandi with cultural, but that got boring.

How do you keep your economy and tech decently high after early wars.

I usually go to war when i have about 3 cities and IW. and completely destroy one civ, sometimes two.

But, when i destroy the civ and take oevr all the cities, the city upkeep is crazy. I end up dropping my tech rate to around 20% or so and im still loosing money.

The AI or other players get a tech lead because the war kills my economy. without tech I'm screwed.

I always build cottages early, but usually don't have courthouses before my first war is over. Courthouses or marketplaces take so alot of tech to get to, when I'm at war by 1500BC, and have completely taken the civ by 800BC or so. AT latest, 100AD.

Do you just pillage? Make peace when they have 1 city or so for the tech? How do you keep the gold up when at early war?

 

[Sisiutil]

jn10091981,

(bloody awful board name by the way, sorry)

I've put aside playing as Caesar on Prince because I found it guaranteed a win. It was getting addictive, in a way. Here are a few pointers.

First off: don't keep every city! They have to be worthwhile, otherwise the maintenance cost makes them not worth keeping. Holy cities are keepers, as are capitals because of the prime locations they usually have. Other than that, unless the city has a Wonder or a large population (at least size 5) and a really good location, raze it.

Your Praet veterans will have to deal with the inevitable barbarians in the resulting FoW, but a few black-flag Axemen are not going to be a problem for veteran Roman legions. Opportunistic remaining civs claim-jumping your territory, however, will also be a problem--so you'll need to at least build a few new cities at key locations to deter them, like along the coastline (you may want to keep a couple of conquered cities for this purpose, but not too many).

Choose your opponents carefully. Don't go after just the closest or just the weakest or just the one with a shrine. Before the Praet rush is finished, you should have wiped out or at least severely crippled your biggest rival--the Civ most likely to get a tech lead on you. Or failing that, you should have hemmed him in severely with land grabs. I often do the latter to Mansa, because he's great to tech trade with. (You are playing Rome on Continents or Pangaea, aren't you?)

Speaking of which, don't go to war with everyone. Cultivate a couple of friends with whom you can tech trade to catch up. You can always (and probably will) conquer them later.

You will capture a lot of workers. Put them to work building guess what: cottages. Do this while you're still conquering. You need the cottages to mature into profitability ASAP. Some workers will get captured by raiders going behind your front. Don't sweat it. You'll capture them back, and more, before you're done.

During the Praet rush I bee-line to Code of Laws. I don't care if I don't get to it first (though it is nice to found Confucianism), because I will most likely capture at least one holy city. But I want those courthouses and the Forbidden Palace. Remember Organized means Caesar can build the courthouses quickly and cheaply. They're often the first thing I build in a conquered city. Consider moving your capital; I find on Prince I tend to start in one corner of the continent, so after I conquer a lot of territory, Rome is no longer central. Look at the map, pick two cities that are central to two different clusters of cities, and build the Palace in one and Forbidden Palace in the other. If you've conquered a lot of territory, plan for three "capitals", rush to Divine Right, and build Versailles as well.

If you can capture the Pyramids, you can switch civics to Representation to help manage happiness and boost your research. After CoL, go after Civil Service (give the CS Slingshot a try if you have marble) so you can switch to Bureaucracy. Leverage the shrines you've captured (or develop a GP farm to harvest a Great Prophet if you don't have one) by choosing a new state religion. Spread it to all your cities and to your neighbours. If you rushed to DR, you can try to build the Spiral Minaret as well.

Do as many of the above as you can, and soon after the war you'll find your income and research slingshoting you ahead of everyone else. Rome rocks. I miss it. As soon as I make the jump to Monarch, though...

 

[The Tyrant]

it might be a good idea for all you builders to drop a level to practice war, then go back up. It seems to have worked for me...

Excellent suggestion. When I want to try a new strategy or concept out, I always drop a level for that game. That way I have a chance to focus on whatever it is I'm trying to learn, rather than trying to survive with a new twist at my highest difficulty level.

 

[Pudd'nhead]

Very interesting thread. I'm still a relative civ4 newbie (didn't start til a month ago, never launched a war before swordsmen), and am looking to go beyond Prince. One clarification: do any of you bother with barracks before building your first war army? I'm guessing not, since tghe emphasis seems to be on ASAP attack, but just want to make sure -- it seems like it could be thought of as a >= 10%, maybe 20% or even 30% bonus on your army production (since each unit could be made 10% stronger right out of the box, and is very close to 20% since exp of new units is 4/5 (% are even higher if you specialize in stuff like city raider). THat seems to be a pretty huge gain that you have to buy just once, to just ignore without serious consideration first ...

 

[The-Hawk]

One clarification: do any of you bother with barracks before building your first war army?

Actually, I do try to get barracks up, I like my units to get the promotion. I personally feel it is important to get some units up to medic asap, otherwise it is hard to sustain the attack. Barracks speeds the process. I find I can often get barracks built while I am still researching IW. However, I only build them in high production cities where they can be completed quickly.

Having said all that, this is something I debate with myself every time. I'm curious to hear what others do.

 

[Sisiutil]

I'm with The-Hawk, though I'm still playing on Prince and am curious to hear the perspective of others playing at the higher levels.

If I have the Aggressive trait, barracks are cheap, and thanks to the free Combat I promotion I have more promotions immediately available at Level 2. This makes my units very flexible right off the bat. They come out of the gate with 4/5 XPs, too, so they only need to win one battle--barbs will do nicely--to get to Level 3.

If I'm not Aggressive, it makes the barracks even more important, since otherwise my units start green. This is especially vital if my first target is an Aggressive civ like Monty or Alex. Unpromoted Praetorians or even Axemen can still win against a Level 3 Jaguar with Combat I, Combat II, and Shock, but they'll take a lot of damage.

I often build at least one early wonder if I have stone or marble, enough trees to chop, and if it will give me a strategic or, even more important for warmongering, an economic advantage. The Pyramids are especially attractive so I can run Representation and/or Police State early, or the Oracle for some sort of slingshot to a handy tech. So that slight delay usually gives me enough time to build barracks in my non-wonder cities.

 

[WonderPup]

Good thread, folks... I've been a builder at heart since Civ I, but have also recognized that building can only be done when not under the threat of being crushed by the neighbors. That said, I've found that being a builder in Civ 4 requires the most aggressive war planning of all the Civs.

I happened upon this almost by accident in one Monarch game. Playing the English, I intended to go after a cultural victory right from the get go. With some clever city placement, I had myself a good amount of land and ocean to the north and west, with the Romans to the south and Arabs to the East. I was holding my own with just enough army to keep my neighbors from seeing me as fresh meat, when I realized that I was only a couple techs away from getting the Redcoats into my arsenal. I beelined for it, built a bunch of axemen while waiting, and then went to all cash to upgrade my axemen into Redcoats. Caesar's praetorians didn't last long, even hiding fortified inside the cities. I went to pure war-monger mode, took out the Chinese (lurking further south from the Romans), then took out the Arabs. Had to plop some Redcoats onto boats to go find enough land to nab a domination victory, but the victory was my most impressive one yet--somewhere areound a score of 50,000 when my previous best was about 8,000.

So, there's a reason I included the details of this story. I learned some good insights as a builder and also still have some questions remaining after playing several more games since then with a new aggressive mindset.

Learnings:
(1) Go to war early.
I haven't figured out a perfect formula for choosing whom I will take out, but I try to look at the following things, roughly in this order:

* Geography. If I can take out an opponent that will allow me to expand all the way to an ocean, that's almost always my top target. That removes a front that I need to defend for a long time and allows me to keep the bulk of my forces in one place.

* Capitals. If there is an opposing capital near my borders, I target that civ. It has many benefits: the city location itself will be great and add a powerful city to my production base. It also takes a culture threat off my borders, perhaps even one strong enough to start influencing my cities. They're the most likely places to find Wonders built. They're also among the more likely places to be a Holy City, especially Buddhism or Hinduism, which were probably discovered before the civ even had a 2nd city. Nailing the capital also removes the enemy's best city from their side. It is a powerful target. Early on, they're far more vulnerable. I've seen enemy civs with 30+ units in their capitals even in the mid-game. Better to go after them when they only have about 4 or 5 units total in there.

* Resources. This may go in front of capitals depending on the situation. Bronze OR Horses are essential--if you only have one, then you focus on building an army made of either Axes & Spears or of Horse Archers. Preferably you get both so you can have some diversity. But having neither is a certain way to die. If I have neither, I go after the easiest one of them. If I have one and not the other, I use this as a tiebreaker when considering other factors.

* Special units. Mine and theirs. I try to go after enemy civs no later than a few researches before they get their special unit. Polishing off the English is a LOT easier when they're sporting muskets than when they upgrade to Redcoats. But a few turns before Gunpowder, I'd rather take out the French than the English. And before that, I'd rather go after the Romans than the French. I also consider special units in conjunction with resources. If an opponent's special unit doesn't need a resource, I can't prevent it. If they need a resource and they have 3 of that resource, I can't make a quick strike. But if I can make a quick move to take out their only source of iron or horses, I'll target that Civ even if I don't need the resource myself.

I like the suggestion that said "kill one, wound one" early in the game. That's about what I do, too. Sometimes I kill both, sometimes wound both, depending on the situation, but it is important to make inroads against at least 2 opponents to have a chance at the higher levels.


(2) You can still be a builder.
In fact, you almost need to be. You need at least a couple well-developed cities in order to crank out enough of a military to keep the pressure on. That means high production, and that means high population, and that means high health and happiness, and that means a lot of "non-military" buildings. This is why going after enemy capitals is so important--once the revolution is over, they quickly become one of the best cities in your empire. Same with any enemy city with a large population--if the AI got one city to size 11 and the other to size 3, the former will likely have a lot more going for it than the latter.



(3) Don't be afraid to build national wonders in your capital.
This one is still emotionally hard for me as a builder. I find my best research and money city is almost always my capital, so I often leave its quota of 2 national wonders free to build Wall Street and Oxford later in the game. Thing is, by that point, you've missed on several dozen turns of having the Heroic Epic building your army at double-speed in one of your best cities. I've often found myself "saving" the Heroic Epic and other national wonders for just the right time and place and then never building it at all because there is always something else going on. Build it, and build it early.


I've got some other thoughts on this too, but this post is already way longer than I intended it to be, so I'll move on to my questions and write further in a later post if anyone is interested.


Questions:

(Q1) Money, money, MONEY!?.
I still have a hard time figuring out how to balance my infrastructure with my army early on, especially about the time I get to 4-5 cities. That's where my economy starts to slow down and my research lags, and I don't have Code of Laws yet for courthouses. Yet, this is exactly the point where you need to be waging war on your neighbors, and suddenly going up to 9-12 cities can cripple all economy and research. That usually means many turns at ~20% tech at the end of a war while trying to get everything productive.

If I focus on building infrastructure during this time, I don't have enough army to wage war. If I don't wage war, I end up behind since, as has been noted, the AI has advantages over time if left untouched. Any suggestions on how to build an army and conquer enemies without ending up crushing my economy for a few dozen turns?

(Q2)Buy or build?
This is more for the mid-game warmongers (like I have been so far). I have liked to use the English (Redcoats) or Russians (Cossacks) because of the bonus power--and additional combat bonuses--of their special units. I have gotten around not building massive armies early by going on a big Horse Archer or Axe/Spear building spree in the 10-20 turns before getting the corresponding tech, and then going to 100% money to pay for upgrading the units. I'm having a harder time gathering enough money to do this at the higher levels without really crippling my research for a long time. Thoughts on the right balance here?


(Q3) Barracks.
It was already asked on this thread, but I'll reiterate the question since I think it is a key one: any rules-of-thumb for how many cities to build barracks in, or which ones?


As with the learnings, I have more questions, but I'll keep both lists to 3 at the moment. Thanks in advance for all the thoughts and answers on this stuff.

 

[Oggums]

(3) Don't be afraid to build national wonders in your capital.
This one is still emotionally hard for me as a builder. I find my best research and money city is almost always my capital, so I often leave its quota of 2 national wonders free to build Wall Street and Oxford later in the game. Thing is, by that point, you've missed on several dozen turns of having the Heroic Epic building your army at double-speed in one of your best cities. I've often found myself "saving" the Heroic Epic and other national wonders for just the right time and place and then never building it at all because there is always something else going on. Build it, and build it early.

I still suffer from this infliction.

 

[Nightravn]

Start your war with Warriors..... steal the closest Civ's Worker and put them on the defensive. Park a couple of troops outside their city in a forest(on a hill if you can) and let them kill themselves on it. Crippling a Civ's start is always a Good Thing .... it makes it that much easier to kill off when you do get your Axemen.

I like to take Civs out by Era's... start in the Ancient with the closest Civ using warriors to steal workers and then axemen to finish off. Park troops outside your next target cities while building until you have swords and cats then take it out, Then do the same thing while you build until Knights. Usually by then you have a land and Tech Advantage so use your Army to expand and only build settlers to fill in where needed when your infrastructure is built.

Starting with stealing workers was the way I put aside my Builder Tendencies and so can You!!!!

 

[The-Hawk]

(1) Go to war early.
I haven't figured out a perfect formula for choosing whom I will take out, but I try to look at the following things, roughly in this order:

* Geography.
* Capitals.
* Resources.
* Special units.

At higher difficulty levels, this decision is much simpler for me... who is closest? I want to be at war asap, so proximity is everything. Maybe a secondary consideration is Geography... as you said, if eliminating an AI will remove a front, it is a good consideration.

At middle levels I think your list is good... maybe the one thing I consider above these is overall power/advancement of the AI. If a particular AI is getting too strong I will go after him asap.

At lower levels, it doesn't matter... I may even go get an AI that I'm pissed at from a previous game.

Questions:

(Q1) Money, money, MONEY!?.
I still have a hard time figuring out how to balance my infrastructure with my army early on, especially about the time I get to 4-5 cities. That's where my economy starts to slow down and my research lags, and I don't have Code of Laws yet for courthouses. Yet, this is exactly the point where you need to be waging war on your neighbors, and suddenly going up to 9-12 cities can cripple all economy and research. That usually means many turns at ~20% tech at the end of a war while trying to get everything productive.

If I focus on building infrastructure during this time, I don't have enough army to wage war. If I don't wage war, I end up behind since, as has been noted, the AI has advantages over time if left untouched. Any suggestions on how to build an army and conquer enemies without ending up crushing my economy for a few dozen turns?

If you do not have courthouses, you really need to consider razing most cities you capture. I'll only keep really strong cities... i.e. has a wonder, founded a religion, or has a decent pop and lots of cottages so that is self funds.

If you are in serious warmonger mode, you can run your economy at a deficit... the gold from captured/razed cities keeps you solvent.

(Q2)Buy or build?
This is more for the mid-game warmongers (like I have been so far). I have liked to use the English (Redcoats) or Russians (Cossacks) because of the bonus power--and additional combat bonuses--of their special units. I have gotten around not building massive armies early by going on a big Horse Archer or Axe/Spear building spree in the 10-20 turns before getting the corresponding tech, and then going to 100% money to pay for upgrading the units. I'm having a harder time gathering enough money to do this at the higher levels without really crippling my research for a long time. Thoughts on the right balance here?

I generally only build units if I plan to use them soon. If I build a bunch of axes, I will put them to work rather than wait and upgrade. After the war is over the survivors will upgrade. The only time I am building up units while teching an upgrade is if I really don't have anything else to build.

 

[Melkongla]

Interesting thread folks, keep it coming!

On the barracks question (I'm talking Ancient era war here) I think it depends on what units you are using to attack and who is your chosen opponent, specifically are they aggressive?

I figure on killing 3 archers to take a city. If opponent is aggressive they may have city garrison advancement. With fortification bonus they are already stronger than inexperienced axemen. I will need maybe 9 axemen to be sure of taking the city, I can't afford to fail otherwise the AI will be healed and stronger by the time I can attack again.

The high level AIs grow so fast I need to take out 4-5 cities, once the war has been going a few turns there may be even more archers per city to kill.

In this scenario I need a lot of units, maybe 15-20 to win the war, with barracks providing Cover advancement I estimate losing 25% fewer units, since a barracks costs less than 2 axemen it's probably worth it.

If I am aggressive or have access to good UUs earlier than axemen, say skirmishers or immortals, then I may be able to reach the required number of units faster without building barracks (AI will also be weaker the sooner I attack).

I don't know whether I would try to capture an enemy worker before attacking. Doing this may make the AI build more units sooner and therefore be harder to kill. What do you folks think?

 

[The Tyrant]

I always prioritize granaries (allows more frequent use of the whip) and barracks (to give my units an edge). I try to get barracks in as many of my early cities as possible. As The Hawk mentioned, high-production cities can build barracks quickly. In the lower-production cities I'll whip a barracks.

Why? Won't those cities be useless for producing units? Not in the early game. In the early pointy-stick expansion phase, every city is a unit-production city. Even if some cities take twice as long to produce an axeman as other cities, they're still churning them out. After the initial expansion phase I'll begin to think about specializing cities, but at first every city has only one reason to exist -- to produce units.

 

[Ledneh]

I started my first game on Noble today, and got effectively trounced 'cause I got warred against early while I had a piss-poor military. So I want to learn how to better build a military, and how to warmonger effectively. This guide has helped, but now I'm stuck picking a Civ again.

I'm kinda split between Huyana Capac or whatever, for Financial and Agressive, and Caesar for the Praetorians (which everyone seems to say are oh-so-sexy). Anyone have any thoughts on either?

 

[VirusMonster]

Ledneh,

Check out my article with Incas on deity difficulty. So far I have only written the portion of the article that covers your first 5 cities, but it should give you a good start for now.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=169930

 

[The-Hawk]

I'm kinda split between Huyana Capac or whatever, for Financial and Agressive, and Caesar for the Praetorians (which everyone seems to say are oh-so-sexy). Anyone have any thoughts on either?

I'm not sure it matters all that much. Quechua are great for ultra-early warmongering, but become obsolete very early. Praets arrive later (still very early) but can dominate when they do show up. Also, they last a lot longer. Huayna's traits are quite good, for higher level warmongering, so are Caesars.

 

[Eggolas]

I started my first game on Noble today, and got effectively trounced 'cause I got warred against early while I had a piss-poor military. So I want to learn how to better build a military, and how to warmonger effectively. This guide has helped, but now I'm stuck picking a Civ again.

I'm kinda split between Huyana Capac or whatever, for Financial and Agressive, and Caesar for the Praetorians (which everyone seems to say are oh-so-sexy). Anyone have any thoughts on either?

My first Noble wins were with Lizzie and Katie. Build early axemen, expand a little and spam cottages. When maces come, try to take a few cities from a weaker opponent and build to City Raider 3. With Lizzie, upgrade to Redcoats and annihilate the opposition. With Katie, it's the Cavalry UU. If you can slingshot Military Tradition from Liberalism, so much the better.

Of course, Caesar is always great.

But, for lots of early Noble fun, try Qin of the Chinese. The Maceman/CKN combination can wipe out other civs, especially if you play on Epic or Marathon.

 

[Gnarfflinger]

I have a noble victory with Tokugawa (Agg+Org) and Monty (Agg+Spir).

My won vs retry rate is not flattering, but the Aggressive trait does help when you are looking to fight.

The big thing is that war is not optional. If you don't make an example out of someone, or even trim back someone who gets too big for their britches, you're in for a real problem later in the game.