Warmongering for Builders (at higher levels)

[mikezang]

I don't agree with eraly war, I always play in Prince with China Mao of Continent, and I never start war before I built Catapuls, bascially, I will destroy all enemis on the same continent, then dicide which victory is more suitable for me, I win almost game.

At the moment, I am playing a game, there are Hatshepsut, Genghis Khan and Cyrus are on my continent, I destroied all of them and got whole continent, but it only 40% of the world. There are George Washington, Mansa Musa and Julius Caesar on another continent. All of them are positive point of view at me, although I built UN, I can't get Diplomatic Vistory, so I have to win on Space Ship.

 

[Gnarfflinger]

I guess it boils down to picking your spots. You need to take some opponents out, but don't overwork the war machine...

 

[Gumbolt]

It would be nice to see an early AI rush. I had the Aztec once do this to me once. I had about 4-5 axemen ready and they came out of the woods with chariots, jaguars and spearmen. They later became a real good friend in game and joined in all my wars. How weird is that. I normally build a few cities build a few barracks and granaries pending leader traits and try to knock off an encroaching AI.

I'll normally hold off libraries till war has started. I think a war befoe 1000BC is latest for me. The AI dont normally send reinforcements. I have had games where im at war with the AI and 12 or so units sit in the capital. I can only assume they are afraid i might attack it or kill their units in open terrain.

The less cities you build the earlier you can start the war. On monarch i normally bash out 4 cities first. Find the copper and go.

 

[Siv]

As a builder, I find that I wait until I have a 1 or 2 unit tech advances before I start a war. I am wary of starting a war on equal footing. Once I do start a war they last way to long and I get bogged down which slows my city building.

I started a war with macemen and I am still fighting with tanks now! WAR for the ages.

 

[The-Hawk]

I don't agree with eraly war, I always play in Prince with China Mao of Continent, and I never start war before I built Catapuls, bascially, I will destroy all enemis on the same continent, then dicide which victory is more suitable for me, I win almost game.

As a builder, I find that I wait until I have a 1 or 2 unit tech advances before I start a war. I am wary of starting a war on equal footing.

Up to a certain difficulty level (monarch?, emperor?), I don't disagree with either of these statements. But, my OP was about warmongering at higher levels .

At high difficulty levels, I don't think you can wait. By the time you have cats, the AI is long gone. If you leave the AI's alone, you will never be ahead in techs.

As others have pointed out, it would seem Civ IV offers many more strategic choices at low-middle levels. Unfortunately, at deity your options become more limited.

 

[Cobus J van Wyk]

Hey guys!

Thanks for this thread! I really learned alot and picked up a bunch of ideas! I am also a builder, but see the need for war and expanding militarywise now...

With regards to adopting a plan to win I must say that I think a standard opening is good to have, but as said previously by other fanatics I think we as builders have an espescially hard time to then sculpt our strategy to fit the map, diplomatic relations, etc. I know I have to work on that... read the oponent and then decide what is best victory option.

Great day!

 

[dalamb]

This is probably a really dumb question, but how do you tell which enemy cities are the "good" ones? You can't look inside. Do you mean look at the Wonders list and religion tabs to see what cities are listed?

 

[Khalid]

You can see all the important info directly from the basic view (unlike in previous Civs). You will see all wonders, shrines, buildings, holy city signs and resources directly on the map.

 

[Kalleyao]

I don't agree with eraly war, I always play in Prince with China Mao of Continent, and I never start war before I built Catapuls, bascially, I will destroy all enemis on the same continent, then dicide which victory is more suitable for me, I win almost game.

At the moment, I am playing a game, there are Hatshepsut, Genghis Khan and Cyrus are on my continent, I destroied all of them and got whole continent, but it only 40% of the world. There are George Washington, Mansa Musa and Julius Caesar on another continent. All of them are positive point of view at me, although I built UN, I can't get Diplomatic Vistory, so I have to win on Space Ship.

If the level you play becomes too easy, maybe you should move up a level?

 

[mikezang]

I will lost if I go to higher level

 

[ditb]

Do you have any ideas for how to keep the war effort going after you have taken 2 or 3 decent cities, and you still have quite a few more cities to go?

I often get to that point, and I am not sure if I should sign a peace treaty, reorganize and then get after them again.

Please let me know if you have any specific questions and I'll be happy to answer them. Thanks in advance!

Dave

 

[godotnut]

All of my cultural wins on Deity setting that are currently at the top of in the HOF have been totally peaceful builder games--as in, I built one warrior per city and that's it. There was no war whatsoever. I only have one on the new HOF, but I had the tiny, small, and standard slots on the Beta HOF. My earliest finish was 1400 or so. Take a look at the saves if you're curious.

And yes, it can be done with "natural" settings--ancient era start and standard opponents.

For the HOF games, I did however choose who my opponents would be. It would be harder with lots of aggressive enemies.

I've been too lazy to post a comprehensive strategy guide so far, but I go into some detail about it toward the end of this thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168497&page=2

If there's enough interest, I'll do a more thorough write up.

UPDATE: If anyone is interested, I've done a write up of this strategy here.

 

[Pudd'nhead]

I will lost if I go to higher level

LOL, which is exactly what this thread is about, being able to win past Prince if you are not a warmonger by preference. I suppose your approach -- keep winning by just staying at prince, rather than becoming more of a warmonger at noble -- is fine for some, but the rest of us are looking for a CHALLENGE as well as a VICTORY

Good thread all, just catching up now, thanks a lot. I'm reading from my responses to questions on building barracks before war that there is no clear consensus/strong feeling on this? i.e. nothign like chopping, where it's a no-brainer (or maybe a "very small-brainer" now, after latest patch). That's cool, AFAIAC -- if too much of the strategy was formulaic ("always do this") it would not be half as cool the game that it is. But I just wondered if anyone did have a "formula" tht included that.

 

[Jenarie]

I'm a builder... is there a builder's anonymous I can join?

I've been happy for finally moving up to Noble and actually winning one game on Prince but I'm going back to Warlord. I need to learn to fight - every game I've ever won has been cultural.

Thanks for the great tips - I'm going to try some of these even though they aren't really required on lower levels and learn to declare war if it kills me... and it probably will for a while.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I'm a builder... is there a builder's anonymous I can join?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=161472

I've been happy for finally moving up to Noble and actually winning one game on Prince but I'm going back to Warlord. I need to learn to fight - every game I've ever won has been cultural.

You are probably better off learning to fight on whatever level you are on, if not moving up first. Rifles vs archers won't teach you nearly as much as Archers vs rifles (the very first of these lessons being "gee, rifles versus archers is a lot more fun")

 

[Jenarie]

Great thread - I like your advice there!

Goals
1. One of your first four cities should be an enemy capital.
2. Capture (do not build) the Pyramids
3. Capture (do not build) the Great Library
4. Build the Heroic Epic
5. Build West Point
6. Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, hear the lamentations of their women.

You are right about Warlord as well. I just played for two hours and was completely bored. I think after all I've learned in the past month from reading old succession games, HOF gauntlets and WOTMs that I'd have to try to lose on warlord now.

Since a couple weeks ago when I decided I need to stop building, I've been playing pangaea large with extra AI and high water figuring that the lack of room would help encourage me to kill someone off early. My best game so far I actually killed off 3 civs as Japan but then got bored and quit instead of finishing. I'm determined to get better at playing though because I really want to play succession games and don't want to drag a game down. Anyway, that's enough of my babble - thanks for the tips.

 

[uberfish]

The best way to learn is to ask to join a SG at monarch or so, because of the slower pace and the discussion with other players you can play a level or two up. The more experienced players are always ready to give advice (also, someone else will start wars for you if you don't )

 

[KMadCandy]

these are thoughts for those reading who like me aren't at the higher difficulties yet. the tips here are great, and based on my latest game i totally encourage you to fight that builder addiction and try some early warring. capturing holy cities and wonders the neighbors built for you so soon is AWESOME.

1) For me, the biggest challenge has been learning to "pull the trigger" and start my wars quickly. As a builder (and as a relatively cautious player), I always wanted to get one more tech or build one more unit before attacking. For example, once I finished researching knights, then it was only a little longer to get cavs. So I would hold off my wars and research cavs. Then I would want to build a giant cav stack that could not be beat… just one more unit…. just one more unit

that is sooooooo me. hubby is always telling me 'honey you are TOO prepared, go kick some butt already!' i am soooooooo a builder. i want more units! i want to crush them, not just hurt them ... not that brilliant of me sometimes. and oh how he he rolls his eyes at how i try to make my lovely cities big and perfect and oh-so-great.

quoting tyrant: "When I want to try a new strategy or concept out, I always drop a level for that game. That way I have a chance to focus on whatever it is I'm trying to learn, rather than trying to survive with a new twist at my highest difficulty level."

i've been doing that sometimes lately to try new things. played a game as ragnar, on archipelago (which i've hated in the past) this week and it was hella fun. i met isabella before anyone else had, and fought her VERY early for me (galleys!). got two holy cities...barcelona (jewish HC) ended up being my wall street, and madrid ended up my oxford city. razed two cities and kept one other city. i have never captured a holy city that early, it was too cool! thanks izzy, ya did the research for me!

then i met julius before he'd met anybody else. went to war using galleons (ugh the travel time) and captured the great wall and chichen itza from him ... that was cool as hell. i'm so very much a builder that i always spend the time/hammers to make wonders (well, not chiquitita) for myself. it was a great feeling, thanks julius for making the investment for me!

 

[svv]

Here is my great lesson about fighting wars against a powerful opponent (which is what you will be facing if you are playing on a high level).

War is not about grabbing their cities. It is about killing their army. Sometimes this is done city by city, but sometimes (usually if they're powerful) they'll come at you with a huge force.

The power that wins is the power that is possession of the field at the conclusion of this battle. The winner will have dozens of very wounded units. The loser will have dozens of dead units.

So, you want to find the battleground that will make sure you win this battle. Very often you're actually at an advantage attacking their cities, if you're loaded up with CR promotions. You also want to make sure you have a mixed force that matches up well with their mixed force. Finally, you'll want to do a lot of damage with catapults/cannon/artillery.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

The higher level you are, the more necessary war becomes, but on deity, sometimes war is so difficult you might be forced to be a builder out of desperation. It's not winning the cultural victory that eludes me, but how you keep others from attacking you when you only have a skeleton garrison in each city? Are you sure diplomacy works when they have rifles and you have clubs?