Was WWII a War that needed to be fought?

Was WWII Needed?

  • Yes

    Votes: 77 72.6%
  • No

    Votes: 25 23.6%
  • No Opinion

    Votes: 4 3.8%

  • Total voters
    106
Originally posted by pkmink

I don't follow how the unconditional surrender of Germany in 1945 or 1944 could increase the chance of nuclear war. The Soviets didn't have their first A-bomb until 1949.

Ok, let's suppose Hitler was killed by Stauffenberg in 1944, and the new leaders want a conditional surrender to the Allies. What kind of conditions could the Germans possibly have demanded at that stage? And which ones could have been acceptable for the Allies?



There would have been more world powers, instead of two. But it all could have been completely different too. It is just a thought, not my rockhard opinion, or something.

Imagine if Japan would have made peace much earlier. Then there would have been a big chance that China would have eventually be led by Chan Kai Chek, instead of Mao. I hope I don't need to explain why. If it would for someone, then that someone doesn't know enough to argue this fact anyway! :crazyeye:

And with Germany an earlier peace would have meant that Eastern Europe would not have been occupied by the Red Army. Britain could attend its colonies again, just like Holland and France, thus delaying the process of decolonisation. Britain would probably be more powerful at the end of the war then it was in real history. American war-industry would not have been so booming for so long. All this could lead to the conclusion that there would have been more powers, instead of just two. Keep in mind that a lot of German scientists (like Werner von Braun) would then not have been in the USA or SU.
 
Originally posted by pkmink

Yes, my information was based on my highschool days and university, which use mostly pre-1991 data, but I checked an internet site which has made a nice list of all the different studies (pre- and post-1991) into WW2 deaths, the numbers vary dramatically. Most studies give between 20 and 27 million, only 1 gives 49 million (the highest estimate) and another 40 million for Russian dead.
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/ww2stats.htm

I studied and teach history after 1991 and have never heard of 55 million Russian casualties in WW2.
 
Originally posted by Tavenier

(points snipped for brevity's sake)
All this could lead to the conclusion that there would have been more powers, instead of just two. Keep in mind that a lot of German scientists (like Werner von Braun) would then not have been in the USA or SU.
Sure, I agree that there would be more powers (even though I think in the end the SU and USA would still become the only superpowers, because of their sheer size). But I can't see how more powers means a smaller chance of nuclear war. Quite the opposite I would think.
 
Originally posted by pkmink

Sure, I agree that there would be more powers (even though I think in the end the SU and USA would still become the only superpowers, because of their sheer size). But I can't see how more powers means a smaller chance of nuclear war. Quite the opposite I would think.



China is bigger then the USA and has more inhabitants then USA and SU combined.
I don't know if the chance of a nucleaur war would be bigger. A balance of power is better with more participants. Although we can now say that everything went quite well with 'just' two superpowers. But when living in those days I wouldn't know what I prefered.
 
Originally posted by Tavenier


I studied and teach history after 1991 and have never heard of 55 million Russian casualties in WW2.

its form a very new book, coming from info directly from the soviet archives in addition to the german archives as well.
 
Originally posted by Sarevok


its form a very new book, coming from info directly from the soviet archives in addition to the german archives as well.



Not that I don't believe you, or anything, but can I get the title of that book? Just curious to know what their justification for this number is. And maybe there is more info from the Soviet archives in it I want to read about.
 
Originally posted by Tavenier




China is bigger then the USA and has more inhabitants then USA and SU combined.
I don't know if the chance of a nucleaur war would be bigger. A balance of power is better with more participants. Although we can now say that everything went quite well with 'just' two superpowers. But when living in those days I wouldn't know what I prefered.

china is smaller than the USA, though very slight.

The book is called "Slaughterhouse" I think. It said the army's actual losses were 35M and civilian 20M making it a total of 55M. I may have read it wrong though, there are LOTS of numbers in this book. The book also includes the abilities of all equipment used on the eastern front and every division and exactly what they did and who all their commanders were. Its a good book.
 
y did ww2 start?? becus of a assasin in austrai hungery, that one shot, shook the world twice

the resion he killed the ferdinana was becus when hebecam king he was planing to give other ethneic gropes equal freadom or something
 
Originally posted by Vietcong
y did ww2 start?? becus of a assasin in austrai hungery, that one shot, shook the world twice

the resion he killed the ferdinana was becus when hebecam king he was planing to give other ethneic gropes equal freadom or something

That was WWI, buddy. :)
 
Originally posted by MattE
In the book Red Storm Rising, Tom Clancy depicts a massive, surprise, well thought out Soviet invasion into Germany, with the intension of taking over Europe.

The storyline for Red Storm Rising was from the book The Third World War, by General Sir John Hackett.

Clancy stated this in the credits, btw.

Originally posted by MattE
In 1941 this situation came close to reality, although the context was different. Stalin helped to make Hitler dictator of Germany because he was using Hitler to provoke the second World War. Stalin wanted Hitler to wage war over Europe so that it would be weakened by hatred and destruction. Then he would invade as a “liberator from the Nazis” and take control of all of it, including Germany, France, Italy, and Spain. Stalin’s plot was a masterpiece; even today most people still aren’t aware about it. However, he failed in his secret attempt because Hitler found out about his plans and launched a last-resort preventive strike at the USSR in 1941. He destroyed most of the Soviet Union’s offensive capacity, removing the immediate threat to Europe. Had this action not been taken, the Soviet flag would have flown in London by the end of 1941.

No matter what, WW2 would've been fought. The only things that could've been different were;

-The lenght of the war
-The casualties
-The victors

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
Originally posted by Tavenier


I studied and teach history after 1991 and have never heard of 55 million Russian casualties in WW2.

The USSR suffered approximately 27 million dead, that doesn't include the wounded.
 
Originally posted by Tavenier

I don't know if the chance of a nucleaur war would be bigger. A balance of power is better with more participants. Although we can now say that everything went quite well with 'just' two superpowers. But when living in those days I wouldn't know what I prefered.

A balance of power is more likely to move into imbalance the more participants there are, which can only happen when some are waxing and others waning (late 19th century, breakdown of British hegemony, rise of Germany, Italy, Japan -- lots of wars). It's no coincidence that huge general wars do not tend to break out when the number of powers has been greatly reduced, and one or two predominate (post-1815 period, post-1945 period*). And those powers will tend to turn conservative, becoming more interested in protecting what they have than in any future expansion (which would require challenging the other power), reducing the chances of direct conflict. As for nuclear confrontation, that was in absolutely noone's interest, and the threat was in fact very low throughout the cold war. Now, however, with the threat of proliferation, the possibility of "regional" nuclear exchanges, or of terrorists obtaining WMDs...

Back on topic, was the war "necessary?" Well as others have said, perhaps no war is necessary. I'm skeptical of the "red menace" conspiracy theories (Stalin was an opportunist, not an idiot); Germany and Japan were the real threats, and with the absence of a real, enforceable collective security organ in the 30s due to the unwillingness of nations trying to fight the depression to commit themselves to international affairs, their aggression probably could not have been prevented. And one can argue with the tactics involved, but neither Soviet nor American aims would have been well-served without the complete elimination of Germany and Japan, important industrial centers and potential military competitors whose allegiance, to one side or the other, would be important later on. Ultimately that's why I don't think either the Russians or the U.S. were interested in negotiations with Germany or with supporting some kind of revolution or assassination to end the war early. I recently read a fragment of an American military document from 1943 or '44** indicating that even then, U.S. officials were thinking in terms of a "race to Berlin" in which the real competitors were the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. Something similar can no doubt be said of the situation with Japan, considering the timing of the atom bomb attack to coincide with the Russian invasion.

* -- of course, I'm talking about wars between significant world powers. Non-powers, particularly in strategic or raw material producting regions, continue to be victimized regardless of the status of the balance-of-power system.

** -- I'm afraid I don't have any more info on the source as I don't have the book in front of me, but you'll find it in T. McCormack's "America's Half Century," a cold war rundown.
 
One thing that pisses me off is that people are always saying that Hitler was an evil man and that he caused the hollocaust (I totally agree) but his eastern neighbor (Stalin) killed so many more people, sent them to labor camps where they died, killed people for no reason, he wasn't even discrininative he killed all races that lived in russia. Instead of just taking Hitler out of power we should have taken both out. And Hitler was bad becuase he was going to oppress his regime on other nations, but again Stalin got to do that after world war 2 (All the satilite nations in eastern Europe.
 
Originally posted by Smirnoff2k
One thing that pisses me off is that people are always saying that Hitler was an evil man and that he caused the hollocaust (I totally agree) but his eastern neighbor (Stalin) killed so many more people, sent them to labor camps where they died, killed people for no reason, he wasn't even discrininative he killed all races that lived in russia. Instead of just taking Hitler out of power we should have taken both out. And Hitler was bad becuase he was going to oppress his regime on other nations, but again Stalin got to do that after world war 2 (All the satilite nations in eastern Europe.

I agree with your sentiments, I'm sure most people would agree with you too.

However, after all the carnage and bloodshed in the years between 1939 and 1945, nobody had the stomach for more war.

To reverse the Soviet occupation of Poland and the rest of Eastern Europe would have required alot more bloodshed.

Stalin was also smart enough not to aggressively threaten the Western nations as Hitler did. A major factor in why Communism survived and Nazism didn't.
 
Originally posted by joespaniel


The USSR suffered approximately 27 million dead, that doesn't include the wounded.

dead 35
wounded 35
civilian 20

TTL 55
 
Sarevok:
I still find it hard to believe given the total population of USSR in 1941...I suppose that a large part of that 55 million figure is people murdered by Stalin. Does that number include people killed before 1941?
 
I don't think a balance of power of two is 'better'. Look at today. One of the two collapsed and only one is left. There is no balance these days. I am glad it was the USSR that collapsed and not the USA, but still things could have been better with more powers to balance.
China and Europe will (probably) even the balance a bit in the future.
With more powers in a BOP the balance will not easily turn to one side. Others would team up (military, economically and/or politically) to even the balance again.
 
Originally posted by Sarevok


china is smaller than the USA, though very slight.



You're right, I looked it up. It is indeed very slightly. I think I forgot Alaska!
 
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