Water maps - traits synergy

[Gliese 581]

I would say financial is the most strong on archipelago - tiny islands. You have so few land tiles that you have to focus on production on almost every one of them. So where's your commerce coming from? You guessed it, working regular coast tiles. 3 commerce vs 2 from a non-financial civ.
With the colossus that becomes 4 vs 2 for every tile.

 

[siggboy]

I'm worried only 4 people realize earlier great people outweighs production bonuses for lighthouses. Get to Astronomy sooner. Liberalism. Civil Service. Everything which is a prerequisite for success on a water map. Clearly Philosophical > Organized.

Getting to Sailing early and building a certain wonder is the prerequisite for easy water map games. The things you've mentioned follow naturally and without effort after that.

Philosophical is always nice but definitely less valuable than any of Organized, Expansive, Industrious or Financial on a water map.

 

[siggboy]

I would say financial is the most strong on archipelago - tiny islands. You have so few land tiles that you have to focus on production on almost every one of them. So where's your commerce coming from? You guessed it, working regular coast tiles.

While I'm focusing on working hammer tiles, my commerce comes from working coast tiles. Can you show me a screenshot? Because I can't quite follow you at the moment.

 

[Gliese 581]

While I'm focusing on working hammer tiles, my commerce comes from working coast tiles. Can you show me a screenshot? Because I can't quite follow you at the moment.

I think of it this way. In a normal game I do everything I can to avoid regular coast tiles, financial or not they're a last resort unless I have Moai.
You don't have that luxury on archipelago tiny islands. You'll of course first work a couple of water resources typically like fish, clam and a few hammer tiles (mines, forests), but as you grow you'll need to work some coast as well. Or stay at a small size for many cities.
I don't have a screenshot but start up the map type I'm referring to and go to WB.
I hate these maps because of all the transporting that needs to be done so I haven't played more than one or two games on them. As inca. For the record it felt like I was two difficulties lower than what I selected.
But I'd say that regardless you'll want to work coast tiles much more often on archipelago, where financial is a good boost.

 

[siggboy]

I think of it this way. In a normal game I do everything I can to avoid regular coast tiles, financial or not they're a last resort unless I have Moai.
You don't have that luxury on archipelago tiny islands.

Yes you do because your commerce comes from TRADE ROUTES (and I assume we have the GLH): 9 commerce for every single city that you plunk down, and this is early cities, later on it becomes more, and more, and more...

After the GLH and meeting 2-3 friendly AIs, you're sorted. Start looking for production tiles and don't bother with commerce anymore. The trade income completely drowns any additional benefit that FIN would give you. Welcome, but not needed at all. Since I'm not going to miss it, at all, I'll pick something else like Organized or Expansive or Industrious instead.

 

[Gliese 581]

Yes you do because your commerce comes from TRADE ROUTES (and I assume we have the GLH): 9 commerce for every single city that you plunk down, and this is early cities, later on it becomes more, and more, and more...

After the GLH and meeting 2-3 friendly AIs, you're sorted. Start looking for production tiles and don't bother with commerce anymore. The trade income completely drowns any additional benefit that FIN would give you. Welcome, but not needed at all. Since I'm not going to miss it, at all, I'll pick something else like Organized or Expansive or Industrious instead.

I agree that trade routes is all you need early game and that GLH is the most broken, however mid game you'll find that you're working lots of coast tiles and financial really makes a difference there. But you're right that financial should not be valued the highest, industrous is probably the more important (GLH, Colossus from possibly a slingshot).
Late game I reckon Sid's Sushi would be totally crazy.

 

[schwartz]

ind/fin is my choice
GLH is huge, colossus is huge.
I never considered any other traits.

 

[Bleys]

. . . however mid game you'll find that you're working lots of coast tiles and financial really makes a difference there.

This is really only true on Arch maps, though. On other water-based maps, there is usually enough land tiles that can be improved and worked. In fact, I think that you would be surprised how few coastal tiles you will actually work. Sure you might have a 1 or 2-land tile island with 3 Seafood here and there, but for the most part, on maps that DONT use "tiny islands", you wont work nearly as many coastal tiles as you imagine. Between whipping population as your main source of production and trying to work resources + cottages, (or running Specialists), you are still in a situation where a non-seafood coastal tile is sort of a "last resort".

Now, I still think FIN is very powerful on water maps because of those tiles, and because of the vast amount of seafood tiles you will work (which is the same reason I think Colossus is worth it on those maps), but I have played many many variations of "water maps" and you just never seem to work those coastal tiles as much as you think you will.

They sure look pretty in the city screen, but what is prettier is having the Trade Routes require you to scroll to see them all.

 

[Gliese 581]

This is really only true on Arch maps, though. On other water-based maps, there is usually enough land tiles that can be improved and worked. In fact, I think that you would be surprised how few coastal tiles you will actually work. Sure you might have a 1 or 2-land tile island with 3 Seafood here and there, but for the most part, on maps that DONT use "tiny islands", you wont work nearly as many coastal tiles as you imagine. Between whipping population as your main source of production and trying to work resources + cottages, (or running Specialists), you are still in a situation where a non-seafood coastal tile is sort of a "last resort".

Now, I still think FIN is very powerful on water maps because of those tiles, and because of the vast amount of seafood tiles you will work (which is the same reason I think Colossus is worth it on those maps), but I have played many many variations of "water maps" and you just never seem to work those coastal tiles as much as you think you will.

They sure look pretty in the city screen, but what is prettier is having the Trade Routes require you to scroll to see them all.

Yes on a 50% water map (I count only city tiles) you won't work as many coastal tiles.

 

[Bleys]

Archipelago is the most "extreme" end of the water map spectrum, with Pangaea being on the opposite end (with the no shoreline setting, there are much fewer coastal tiles).

In between we have all kinds of maps, Big and Small, Medium and Small, Snakey continents, Fractal, even the weird maps have lots of coast. Sure, on Arch, I want FIN, because most of my cities will be on smallish islands and forced to work more coast, but for just about any other type, the FIN trait is going to pay off in cottages and resources more than coastal tiles, just like usual FIN cities with cottages and dye/spice/gold/gems/etc.

 

[Harry Potter52]

Yeah seems like Industrious is better than Expansive... should have thought of that while voting.

 

[semirami]

Industrious and Financial is the best combo. Oh Huayna again. This guy is just awesome for any start.

Good combos: Liz, Darius, Ragnar, Hannibal

 

[siggboy]

Traits aside, Joao II is probably still the optimal leader choice for water maps, due to his UU (Carrack = Caravel with 2 real cargo slots), and most importantly the UB (Feitoria = combination of mini-Colossus and Customs House).

Comes with Expansive and Imperialistic (Exp has been discussed and Imp does have some synergy because Privateers can get you a lot of risk-free GG points and fast settlers are good anyway).

My problem with Joao II is that the choice is as obvious as Huayna is for Pangea maps -- too obvious, and too easy play, but probably good for practicing the next higher difficulty level.

 

[Gliese 581]

Traits aside, Joao II is probably still the optimal leader choice for water maps, due to his UU (Carrack = Caravel with 2 real cargo slots), and most importantly the UB (Feitoria = combination of mini-Colossus and Customs House).

Comes with Expansive and Imperialistic (Exp has been discussed and Imp does have some synergy because Privateers can get you a lot of risk-free GG points and fast settlers are good anyway).

My problem with Joao II is that the choice is as obvious as Huayna is for Pangea maps -- too obvious, and too easy play, but probably good for practicing the next higher difficulty level.

Joao is probably the best for maps with lots of water and islands but some distance between them.
If all islands can be reached by galleys my vote would go to Willem because of the UB.

 

[Harry Potter52]

Joao is probably the best for maps with lots of water and islands but some distance between them.
If all islands can be reached by galleys my vote would go to Willem because of the UB.

Sorry... but is this BtS you are talking of?
I only have warlords so I am a bit lost

 

[InFlux5]

1. Industrious. The Great Lighthouse and Colossus are must-haves for a sea-based game.

2. Financial. This trait makes fishing villages much more profitable.

I can understand why someone would pick Organized, but I'd rather have a discount on wonders than Lighthouses, which are pretty cheap to begin with. Also, Lighthouses are almost always going to be built with Slavery, taking advantage of seafood resources, since fishing villages are usually starved for .

 

[Gliese 581]

Sorry... but is this BtS you are talking of?
I only have warlords so I am a bit lost

Yes Willem Van Oranje of the Dutch in BTS. Instead of a levee (accessed by steam power, +1 hammer on all river tiles) he gets his UB, the dike. It works the same as the levee except it also boosts all water tiles +1 hammer. Like Moai Statues (is this national wonder bts only?) for every city.

 

[Harry Potter52]

Yes Willem Van Oranje of the Dutch in BTS. Instead of a levee (accessed by steam power, +1 hammer on all river tiles) he gets his UB, the dike. It works the same as the levee except it also boosts all water tiles +1 hammer. Like Moai Statues (is this national wonder bts only?) for every city.

I guess Moai statues and levee are BtS

 

[Levgre]

the main asset of organized, reduced upkeep, is little help early on if you are cut off from expanding until galleons.

Lighthouses are rarely a problem for me because it is a simple 2 population whip right at the beginning of a cities lifespan, when it is not costly to whip.

I choose financial and philosophical for being consistently the most useful. Research chumps most other things on water maps. Philosophical also deals with excess food and helps save production early on, since you can work specialists and not have to worry about as many monarchy garrisons, or give you a benefit while the unhappiness timer is decreasing from whipping(which is key on water maps).


I'm not a big fan of building wonders though. Industrious could be quite useful. It is another route towards GPP, and has an edge when it comes to cultural wins, over philosophical.

 

[vale]

Again I think the lack of definition of what a water map is is hurting us here.

I believe and Archipelago with many small masses within galley range of each other is a true water map and the type of map generated by for instance the islands script is a totally different animal (I would call that tiny continents).

In an Archipelago map type your expansion will only be cut off by your ability to produce the military or settlers and your ability to fund them. In an islands map type, you are correct that expansion is usually harshly limited.