We Need to Discuss Kongo's UU

[MarigoldRan]

Consider: Ngao Mbeba. Costs 20 more production than normal swordsmen. However, more mobile (moves through forests without penalty- perfect for Kongo's rainforest starts). And +10 defense vs ranged fire.

Most importantly: resourceless.

Highest city defenses in classical era: 40.
Ngao Mbeba with Oligarchy has 39. I.e. they can handle Classical era cities with no trouble.

In the past, the Mbeba was considered the weakest of the swords UU. But now with the resource restrictions, and the nerfs to city defense, they're arguably the best of the Swords UUs as you can spam them out and upgrade into them.

The usual counter to swordsmen are other swordsmen or archers or city defenses. But the AI isn't going to build lots of swords due to resource issues and archers do nothing to the Ngao and city defenses have been nerfed. Even without a GG they'll crush any nearby civs. With a GG and they'll massacre everything. At 2 promotions, and a GG they'll have 4 moves, 44 strength (64 defense vs Xbow fire), and the ability to walk through forests without penalty.

In other words, Kongo now arguably has one of the top 5 UUs in the game.

Kongo Build Order:

Skip AH and archery and slingers entirely. Use warriors for defense. Try to get 2 of them promoted to level 1. Try to kill 3 barbs. Get second city at some point (for more chops).

Since you start in the rainforest anyways, beeline Iron Working. Then IW. Save money. Moment you get Iron Working, upgrade 2 warriors to Ngao.

Chop out 2-3 more.

4-5 Ngao can massacre everything in the ancient era. Get an encampment or two. Get GG by time you get Oligarchy in the Classical era.

continue domination.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Consider: Ngao Mbeba. Costs 20 more production than normal swordsmen. However, more mobile (moves through forests without penalty- perfect for Kongo's rainforest starts). And +10 defense vs ranged fire.

Most importantly: resourceless.

Highest city defenses in classical era: 40.
Ngao Mbeba with Oligarchy has 39. I.e. they can handle Classical era cities with no trouble.

In the past, the Mbeba was considered the weakest of the swords UU. But now with the resource restrictions, and the nerfs to city defense, they're arguably the best of the Swords UUs as you can spam them out and upgrade into them.

The usual counter to swordsmen are other swordsmen or archers or city defenses. But the AI isn't going to build lots of swords due to resource issues and archers do nothing to the Ngao and city defenses have been nerfed. Even without a GG they'll crush any nearby civs. With a GG and they'll massacre everything. At 2 promotions, and a GG they'll have 4 moves, 44 strength (64 defense vs Xbow fire), and the ability to walk through forests without penalty.

In other words, Kongo now arguably has one of the top 5 UUs in the game.

Errr don't they cost iron though? Only resourceless swordman unique unit is toa from maori

 

[Kwami]

Yes, the Ngao Mbeba costs 5 Iron. That's a lot less than the 20 required for a Swordsman, but it's not nothing. Macedon's Hypaspist also requires only 5 Iron and costs 10 less Production, but has some different bonuses (better sieging, better support).

 

[acluewithout]

Doesn’t Kongo’s UU need to be buffed to have the same combat strength as a normal swordsman?

 

[Kwami]

It's 35 vs. 36 Strength, so not really.

 

[Weraptor]

What nerfs to city defenses are you talking about?

 

[MarigoldRan]

1. Wall fire is doing significantly less damage.
2. Someone else posted about city defenses (I've noticed that taking cities is much easier now) somewhere else in the forum.

 

[Weraptor]

If anything, city defenses should be higher because of walls buff. I guess the city is ripe for taking if the AI hasn't trained a high combat strength unit thanks to the resource overhaul?

 

[Pietato]

AI are building less walls now, for some reason. I think he means that.

And the Toa is the unit you are searching for (please just make a single UU thread...).

 

[kb27787]

I play Kongo all the time, and believe me, they suck

They ignore woods/jungles, but they certainly don't ignore hills or rivers, not to mention the all-important ZoC. With no way of dealing damage without at least receiving some back a pure Ngao rush quickly loses steam at ~2-3 cities taken (standard speed). More importantly, they still suck against walls without a ram (who cannot zip around as fast as them). AI will still build walls but only start when they are attacked.

If would be better for you to rush theatre squares, etc. or even commercial hubs as that is where Kongo as a civ really shines.

 

[Sostratus]

Doesn’t Kongo’s UU need to be buffed to have the same combat strength as a normal swordsman?

It's 35 vs. 36 Strength, so not really.

In the Spring 2017 patch they changed swordsmen from 35 to 36. (Oddly enough the official patch notes say
"Swordsman are now reduced to 36 combat strength." even thought hey were buffed to 36.)
The justification at the time was that swordsmen should have equal combat strength to horses, who were also 36.
However, it appears that what happened was they improperly updated the XML; they meant to increase the strength of all the units of the class swordsmen by 1, but instead only increased the strength of regular swords by 1.
(This is probably because of how they laid out the XML this time vs how it was in civ 4 &5.)
It would be incredibly unlikely that two civs which were designed with unique swords at +0 and +5 strength were both simultaneously determined to by overpowered by precisely 1 point and this decision was coincidentally never discussed by FXS anywhere ever.
It was just an oversight that had been ignored so long it became part of the game. So from early 2017 to early 2019 we should have had Ngao at 36 and legions at 41. Note that Ngao cost just as much as legions do (110 instead of 90.)

However, in the current version, Ngao are indeed back at 36 strength:

Spoiler :

So I consider my fervent belief that it was an oversight to be justified. I imagine they didn't update the legion because no one really clamored for it, and the Maori Cartel at firaxis just couldn't stomach the glorious legion having a higher base strength than their golden boys, Toa. (Although the toa makes a great argument for 41 legions, since 36+5 aura=41.)

 

[Kwami]

Fair enough. I got 35 from the wiki because I couldn't start up the game and check when I posted. Good to see that the Ngao is fixed.

 

[Morningcalm]

We could also discuss how “Ngao Mbeba” wasn’t what they were really called, despite the Civilopedia entry. https://www.reddit.com/r/civ/comments/55p5wg/about_the_ngao_mbeba/

Insofar as strategy goes, I think they are quite powerful. Not as mighty as the pitati, war cart, or some others, but still quite potent. As Kongo I tend to kill at least one neighboring civ with them.

And 5 iron per unit is fairly easy to get. I do think the iron “store box” limits in GS need to be higher. I tend to have a surplus even after spamming Ngaos.

 

[Pietato]

In the Spring 2017 patch they changed swordsmen from 35 to 36. (Oddly enough the official patch notes say
"Swordsman are now reduced to 36 combat strength." even thought hey were buffed to 36.)
The justification at the time was that swordsmen should have equal combat strength to horses, who were also 36.
However, it appears that what happened was they improperly updated the XML; they meant to increase the strength of all the units of the class swordsmen by 1, but instead only increased the strength of regular swords by 1.
(This is probably because of how they laid out the XML this time vs how it was in civ 4 &5.)
It would be incredibly unlikely that two civs which were designed with unique swords at +0 and +5 strength were both simultaneously determined to by overpowered by precisely 1 point and this decision was coincidentally never discussed by FXS anywhere ever.
It was just an oversight that had been ignored so long it became part of the game. So from early 2017 to early 2019 we should have had Ngao at 36 and legions at 41. Note that Ngao cost just as much as legions do (110 instead of 90.)

However, in the current version, Ngao are indeed back at 36 strength:

Spoiler :

View attachment 523027

So I consider my fervent belief that it was an oversight to be justified. I imagine they didn't update the legion because no one really clamored for it, and the Maori Cartel at firaxis just couldn't stomach the glorious legion having a higher base strength than their golden boys, Toa. (Although the toa makes a great argument for 41 legions, since 36+5 aura=41.)

They changed Swordsman from 40 to 36, which is why it says reduced. They buffed them from 35 to 40 the patch before.

 

[MarigoldRan]

We could also discuss how “Ngao Mbeba” wasn’t what they were really called, despite the Civilopedia entry. https://www.reddit.com/r/civ/comments/55p5wg/about_the_ngao_mbeba/

Insofar as strategy goes, I think they are quite powerful. Not as mighty as the pitati, war cart, or some others, but still quite potent. As Kongo I tend to kill at least one neighboring civ with them.

And 5 iron per unit is fairly easy to get. I do think the iron “store box” limits in GS need to be higher. I tend to have a surplus even after spamming Ngaos.

Yes. I agree. It's a very solid UU. Arguably better than the legion now, because of how spammable it is.