Were to Settle?

[lawbar]

I was wondering how many people settle there cities were the game suggests, i.e. in the blue circle? the reason I ask, is that I find there relay quite close to each other and doesn't always suggest were theres goodies are. Whats the feed back on this.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I learned it the hard way: NEVER EVER EVER, EVER EVER, EVER EVER EVER (!!!) listen to what the game suggests. it can't play BTS properly, and it sucks even worse at FFH. ALWAYS evaluate the terrain surronding you and choose your own places where you want to place cities. the game just LOVES to settle on resources, which is a big waste, and does not take into account many things that you should. once I had it recommending to build a city in a spot in which it would NEVER grow, cuz it really wanted to settle on that iron. the only times you should settle in the blue circle is when it happens to be in the same place that you would have chosen yourself

 

[slowcar]

My first requirement is Food. Some Corn on a river does nicely, or some floodplains. Grassland on river is also not too bad - but a sacrifice that should be set off by something else.

At second there is production. If there are not 2+ Hills in the area the city will take aeons to produce anything, especially if it is your capital. Some resources can act similar to mined hills (horses, marble, copper etc).

At third there is commerce. Gold on a plains hill, wine on a grassland river tile, incense (not as good but ok). Floodplains are again good, but take some time for the huts to mature (and education to be researched).

here is a very nice start i had in one of my story games on the german board (deity, 18 civs, aggressive AI, no building req.).
The gold is missing, but otherwise this is as perfect as it can get:

 

[Fafnir13]

I turned all that stuff off a long time ago. Crazy game don't know what's what. I've only recently started learning what to really look for. Used to be I'd just see a resource and try to settle near enough to get it and so that my cities wouldn't overlap. Now I'm actually looking for irrigation opportunities, lot's of green terrain for optimal farms, and nearby hills for production (if that's important for the city). It has certainly helped me out with my starting city which rarely is even remotely close to where I would want it.

In replay to slowcar:

Nice location. If only because I love me my floodplains so very, very much, I'd be tempted to move the settler one square south. Wouldn't get the incense, but I don't tend to get philosophy and calendar that early. Could get it, and the marble, with a second city. Also, moving south would dodge the mana, a useful item but I don't like having too many "dead" tiles in my capital. Only a late game concern there. Using my placement, you would lose out on the hill defense bonus. Probably be okay, especially given the Hippus tendency to rampage over everyone nearby and not the other way around. If you're playing Tasunke at least. Haven't tried out Rhoanna yet. Just hope Orthus doesn't come a calling

 

[Demus]

not bad . I remember some BTS starts, with 3 gold within the capital plot, and 10+ floodplains surrounding the hills they're on. Haven't had such insta-win starts in FFH though.

I prefer incense to wine though, because of the 5-6 gold bonus (can't remember exactly). Other "golden" commerce starts: Ljos/Svalt with 3 silk are amazing, and quite common.

 

[Annex]

You do get less gold with wine, but remember it gives you food once you build a winery, which is available very early on in the game.

I hate the suggestions the game tries to give you. I dont think ive ever settled where they told me to.

 

[fuzzy_bunnies]

I'm bad, I often settle where it suggests if I play advanced start because it'll usually try to include resources that are hidden in the fog of war

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

he, it's cool to settle in the blue circle. it feels "right" in a weird way, and definitely saves a lot of thinking on the players' part. but the coolness only last for a couple seconds, until you realize that you're a lot smarter than an AI

 

[slowcar]

I settled on the spot - and am still arguing with myself if 1S would have been better
On spot gives the commerce from incense and, important in the beginning, +1 production. Later on i really miss the plain hill mine though!

If you want to take a look how the game went (i am still playing it and am on the edge of extionction all the time!) take a look at my game report. its all in german but the pictures speak for themselves, i think it is one of the most challenging games i ever played. especially the part i am uploading the report for right now.

 

[Yashkaf]

I hope I'm not offending lawbar, by I think we need to sum up some more basic tactics and mechanics. Here are a couple of basic settling tips:

Terrain:

* Hills give your cities 25% defence, other terrains don't do squat. I usually ignore it since the capital is usually in the middle of the empire and if it's attacked you're probably screwed already. Still, it's an important consideration for a border city likely to see action.

* Building a city on a square with one side (not corner) being a river is huge boost. It improves your city's commerce and trade options, and more importantly opens up the brewery building option which is basically +3

Resources:

* Plan ahead. Incense can give more cash than a winery, but a winery is available as your 2nd-3rd tech or even right from start for some civs. By the time you research calendar you'll probably have more than one city. Same goes for marble and other advanced resources.

* Mana is a dead tile, by the time you can use it your cities will be far into their 3rd or 4th circle, so no need to have mana in your fat cross (the 20 tiles you can work).

* Special improvements are huge and give you bonuses right away, both in production and Look for upgradeable ones like Patria and Ygg.

* If you grab all the resources with one city, the others will starve. If you plan on building a production city in a hilly area, leave them a food resource or it will work exactly one hill.

General:

* Water tiles are dead unless fishable, look to build coastal cities inside bays or L shaped coasts:

*****
***C*
~~~**
~~***
~~~~*

* Specialize your cities before you build them. GP farms need food resource and one high production tile (plains mine or resource). Commerce cities need either a lot of luxury resources or none at all for a cottage economy. A cottage city has to have many river tiles, and at least as many floodplains as plains for food balance. Prod cities need hills and food resources or floodplains. Think ahead what tiles you'll be able to work. A tile with 2 food is free, other than that you need to have as many bread slices over 2 per tile as under so your city can grow. Not every city has to reach the happy cap though, a small production city that has 3 mines and a corn farm and is 5-6 under the cap is perfect for drafting and inducing buildings.

* One last note: iron and copper never spawn next to food resources, so settling a city right next to one will ensure you won't accidentaly cover a precious metal with your city.

 

[Zechnophobe]

Mana is NOT a dead tile. No reason you can't improve it like any other tile. A grassland next a river with a mana node, is still a grassland next to a river .

With your first city, food is not your most important consideration, economy is. Do not EVER settle in a city, that is only going to pump out 9 econ until bronzeworking or similar.

Remnants of Patria Are the strongest World improvement in the game, settle there even if it isn't otherwise a great spot.

 

[lawbar]

Thanks for the input everyone, very helpful. Ive been playing for a long time time now, not just this mod' but always settle near to the blue circle, but in future I'll have a good look around first. I would just like to say, if i get a manna node I tend to work it until needed.

 

[Yashkaf]

I think in BtS at least the AI cheated a bit with the blue circle, looking ahead and taking into account undiscovered resources like metal, oil etc. If people here say the blue circle is right on top of iron obviously either that isn't true or the AI really got much dumber. And dumberer.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

yes, it probably takes into account undiscovered resources. the problem is that it loves settling right ON TOP OF those undiscovered resources. if the AI settles their cities by that logic, it's no surprise that it sucks so badly on an even level ( i.e. noble ) . the AI city placement logic could really use some tweaking.

 

[Blackmantle]

Unlike many voices here in that thread i don't think its generally a bad idea to settle on some resources.

Especially ones with rather low yields might be worthwhile (since the city might get extra yield under some circumstances if im not mistaken.).

With Plains-Ivory as a prime example. Cotton, Sugar, Furs and Marble also don't really hurt.

Also copper, horses and other early strategic ones might be worth it due to immunity to pillage and superfast acess without building infrastructure first (sometimes via a river you even save building roads which can mean alot.).
Later ones seem like a real waste though most of the time.
The faster you play the more worthwhile it may be to settle right on a resource.

If a resource in jungle is abundant in a rather small area (like Sugar, Dye, Gems or the likes) but unacessable otherwise immediately without fire / sanitation. It might also be worth it if you dearly need the happiness. (In some cases with big patches of resources it might even be because settling on a nonresource one is worth overall even with the loss of such additional yields. I do encounter that in jungle areas rather often.)


So thats also not a nono for me at least.

I agree on higher yield and early-acess ones like incense or gold though.

Have to agree with Zechnophobe that Mana is not a dead tile. Its just not all that interesting for cottages and other things that grow because replacing hurts. But a farm or the likes is no problem. And not all civs try to acess Mana / Manatechs early. Very much later one dead tiles just means that more pop is used as specialists. Not all so much a big deal. (Still better if in the 3rd or 4th cultural extension for capital / culture rich-cities or the 3rd one for low-culture ones.)

@ Slowcar: Really nice start. Recently settling on hills for my early cities apeals to me more and more (especially for higher difficulties). The more i do the bigger deal it seems often. (also find myself settling the odd gras-hill recently just for Defense + Geruilia 1.)
Especially plains-hills (also hightens the chance to get a copper in said spot which i rather like as mentioned). Still hard to find riverside ones in a really good spot most of the time.

Then on the other hand i play creation/erebus most of the time so depending on valley that might be downright impossible or rather easy.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

ah, you're right blackmantle, but I just can't stand the sight of resources in my city, it gets on my nerves. I get really angry when a new resource pops up into one of my cities. I remember a game, huge map, all civs ( FF ones too ) , barbarian world on. well, with that many civs barbarian world results in starting with a couple barbarian cities VERY close to your capital. I always wait until those are level 2 before conquering them cuz I really like not having to waste time on a settler. unfortunately, one of them had an elephant in it. no, I'm not going to have an elephant rampaging around the streets of my city, thank you. that one got razed and rebuilt 1 tile SW IIRC

 

[Blackmantle]

Oh i really like those. Good for a friendly takeover via culture (virtually always check that option as well). Sometimes i even settle near enough to get those cities on second pop of culture. One tile diagonally. And most of the time for 3rd pop if i dont for 2nd.

Boils down to a free settler early more or less. Even works later on if you got a captured bear handy. Thats a rather big boost. (Also allows for sharing farms/ cottages for the new cities rather fastly if needed. No matter if the fatcross overlap is one ore two tiles wide.)

Might as well conqer. But thats much harder to do / is more costly at least. Especially early on.

Style is always a good point though, and a hard to argue one.

 

[Caradoc]

Theoretically, the recommendations should be better now, assuming the blue circle sites were being chosen the same way as for AI settlements. Previously, these were using a three plot radius, as would be appropriate for the Kuriotates, but for others would consider resources in the third tier to be included. Of course that meant bad results. But this has been changed in the latest version so that a two plot radius is used for the evaluation. However, I do not believe the center plot is evaluated any different from the rest so that if it has a resource, it can still be the recommended start location. One thing to consider is that the evaluation is made according to resources that are actually there, and not just the ones you can see. So if it does not make sense, it might be because it knows something you don't!

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

yeah, but it's still dumb as a rock. it's the same logic used in BTS, so...

I had it recommend a city in a place in which the fat cross was made up of... plains hills, nothing else. that city was highly useless, it could not grow for all the money in the world. but there was a resource there, so it said "YEAH!! SETTLE THAT BABY!! RIGHT ON TOP OF THOSE USELESS PATRIAN ARTIFACTS!!" patrian artifacts are a resource that only the scions of patria can see, and I was luchuirp, so I would NEVER get them either . of course, that's a strange one cuz usually it's not THAT dumb... but usually choices are not THAT hard either. so yeah, it's still very, very, very,very, very... dumb.

 

[pvt chaos]

My basic rule for city placement / growth : Every tile that gives 1 food or no food needs a counter with another tile that gives bonus food. So before setting up a city you can just count the food tiles and see how big it can grow.

I believe the AI has 2 reasons for the blue circle placement : catching resources in the BFC or give enough food to the city to give it a reasonable population. But often the first one interfers with the 2nd, advising you to build a city in the outbacks just to catch a resource.

For more info and tips look at this article : http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/completeguide1.php