Still not sure I see it, ok with 4 or 5 sea resources its probably worth it but that doesn't happen very often. With 2 resources, you're talking 250 hammers to give 2 hammers a turn back, plus a 15% bonus on naval units. Assuming your city's starting production is, say, 20 (which is probably on the generous side for a coastal city) then that's 3 extra production per turn when building ships. So, depending on your propensity for building ships that's going to be between 50 and 125 turns before it has paid for itself and starts providing net positive benefits, which is just too long for a mid-game situational building in my opinion. Pretty much the same opinion with forges, although being earlier they at least have a little bit more time to become useful.
What Buildings Can Now Be Ignored, Post-BNW?
- Thread starter WC4J
- Start date
Polycrates
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2006
- Messages
- 1,288
I'm a great believer that, unless you have a particularly urgent need for something else NOW, investing in production is one of the highest priorities for spending your hammers. Hell, even most food buildings are just roundabout investments into getting more people to work more hammers.
Stone works are great. +1 happy and at least +2 production early on when that production is a big percentage of your city's output. Pretty cheap too. Very high priority building for me.
Stables if I have 2+ resources. Again, extra early production is so very worth it.
Barracks/armoury/etc always in my major military production city. Barracks in at least one or two others. Barrackses are cheap, and a starting promo is well worth having. Forge only if there's 2+ iron (rare) or it's a good military city.
Seaport is low priority for me. It's just so expensive and there's so much other stuff to build in coastal cities, only really seems to be a good return on investment if you've got 3+ sea resources.
Zoo all the fricking time, midgame happiness can be seriously problematic. Stadia not so much any more.
Hydro plants are amazing, particularly good candidates for gold build. It can very easily be the equivalent of another iron works, and aluminium units don't come until considerably later anyway. Can especially really accelerate those food/gold-focused riverside cities into solid producers.
Stone works are great. +1 happy and at least +2 production early on when that production is a big percentage of your city's output. Pretty cheap too. Very high priority building for me.
Stables if I have 2+ resources. Again, extra early production is so very worth it.
Barracks/armoury/etc always in my major military production city. Barracks in at least one or two others. Barrackses are cheap, and a starting promo is well worth having. Forge only if there's 2+ iron (rare) or it's a good military city.
Seaport is low priority for me. It's just so expensive and there's so much other stuff to build in coastal cities, only really seems to be a good return on investment if you've got 3+ sea resources.
Zoo all the fricking time, midgame happiness can be seriously problematic. Stadia not so much any more.
Hydro plants are amazing, particularly good candidates for gold build. It can very easily be the equivalent of another iron works, and aluminium units don't come until considerably later anyway. Can especially really accelerate those food/gold-focused riverside cities into solid producers.
I have vague recollections about that, or a similar, thread. The problem with the gold/hammer efficiency comparison is that such analysis rarely takes into account the availability of such resources. Sure, it might be more efficient to buy it rather than build it but by the time you get the Stoneworks you will almost certainly have more hammers than cash (particularly in BNW). If that's not a problem then sure, go ahead, but gold/hammer efficiency is not the sole consideration for whether to buy or build.
There is no reason why a coastal city necessarily has to be a hammer poor city. In fact, Fishes being remarkably food rich means that all a coastal site has to provide in addition is just hills or some equivalent hammer source. If you have those, you have a high hammer city site.
In a 3 Sea Resource situation (the minimum I would consider before settling without additional incentives), a mid game city has at least 3 hammers from the Sea Resources, plus the food output of Civil Service farms (better with Fish). 3 hills provides 9 hammers (12 with Chemsitry), accounting for only 6 population - a small early city by any reckoning. When I get Navigation, a more typical coastal city has something like 12 to 15 population, with attendant Stone Works or Stables as appropriate.
In my latest game, I have a 2 Sea Resource City with 6 Pasture Resources as well. Three Sheep, 2 Horses, 1 Cow. With 1 additional hill, the total production comes to about 24 raw already, without factoring in other tiles. I still don't have Navigation. I expect hammer output to hit 40 by then.
Conservatively assuming I hit 30 (I definitely will), building Seaport will give me +2 Hammers plus 32x0.15 or 4.8 = 5 hammers, or a 7 hammer per turn difference for building ships once the building is done. This "pays for itself" in 35 turns, after which everything is a pure win. It is absolutely worth it.
As a rule of thumb, if I can build Seaport in 8 turns or less and I have at least 2 Sea Resource to boost, I favor buildng it.
This is fairly high hammer, but not unusually so for a coastal city IMX. My most ridiculous coastal city had 8 Fishes and almost pure hills on the land side. I took God of the Sea, natch. Seaport there was totally broken.
In a 3 Sea Resource situation (the minimum I would consider before settling without additional incentives), a mid game city has at least 3 hammers from the Sea Resources, plus the food output of Civil Service farms (better with Fish). 3 hills provides 9 hammers (12 with Chemsitry), accounting for only 6 population - a small early city by any reckoning. When I get Navigation, a more typical coastal city has something like 12 to 15 population, with attendant Stone Works or Stables as appropriate.
In my latest game, I have a 2 Sea Resource City with 6 Pasture Resources as well. Three Sheep, 2 Horses, 1 Cow. With 1 additional hill, the total production comes to about 24 raw already, without factoring in other tiles. I still don't have Navigation. I expect hammer output to hit 40 by then.
Conservatively assuming I hit 30 (I definitely will), building Seaport will give me +2 Hammers plus 32x0.15 or 4.8 = 5 hammers, or a 7 hammer per turn difference for building ships once the building is done. This "pays for itself" in 35 turns, after which everything is a pure win. It is absolutely worth it.
As a rule of thumb, if I can build Seaport in 8 turns or less and I have at least 2 Sea Resource to boost, I favor buildng it.
This is fairly high hammer, but not unusually so for a coastal city IMX. My most ridiculous coastal city had 8 Fishes and almost pure hills on the land side. I took God of the Sea, natch. Seaport there was totally broken.
You can't talk about "+2 hammers" as really only +2 Hammers. Lets put it in perspective:
You have a coastal city, near grassland. You have say, 2 hills, and 2 sea resources, and maybe a forest or two. That's only going to give you +8 with mines on the hills, post-chemistry plus 8 from factory/workshop/windmill and +8 for four engineer specialists. But you've also got a habour, which gives you +2 production from sea resources. So 26 base production + 20 percent equals about 31. Putting the sea port makes that base 28, so closer to 34 BUT you'll get a total of 35% total when building ships, so 37 rather than 31. That pays for itself in about 41 turns or about 8 frigates, not that spectacular, but something definitely feasible if you plan on keeping yourself a nice navy.
HOWEVER
Let's say you have religious community and put another 15%, or in particular God of the Sea, which can mean you'll have +3 hammer fishing boats, with seaport and habor, which can be quite valuable.
Secondly, in terms of Stable and Forge, I rarely build forge, but stable I tend to build in several circumstances. As state, if there is 2 or more, I will almost always build, but if there is only one, a stable being built early can be a good investment if you know you're going to need heavier production at a later point in the game, for example, when universities pop out, or when Atilla the Hun finally defeats your neighbour and sets his eye on you.
You have a coastal city, near grassland. You have say, 2 hills, and 2 sea resources, and maybe a forest or two. That's only going to give you +8 with mines on the hills, post-chemistry plus 8 from factory/workshop/windmill and +8 for four engineer specialists. But you've also got a habour, which gives you +2 production from sea resources. So 26 base production + 20 percent equals about 31. Putting the sea port makes that base 28, so closer to 34 BUT you'll get a total of 35% total when building ships, so 37 rather than 31. That pays for itself in about 41 turns or about 8 frigates, not that spectacular, but something definitely feasible if you plan on keeping yourself a nice navy.
HOWEVER
Let's say you have religious community and put another 15%, or in particular God of the Sea, which can mean you'll have +3 hammer fishing boats, with seaport and habor, which can be quite valuable.
Secondly, in terms of Stable and Forge, I rarely build forge, but stable I tend to build in several circumstances. As state, if there is 2 or more, I will almost always build, but if there is only one, a stable being built early can be a good investment if you know you're going to need heavier production at a later point in the game, for example, when universities pop out, or when Atilla the Hun finally defeats your neighbour and sets his eye on you.
To go a bit more, I distinctly recall seeing a fairly unexciting site for a possible coastal city location in my other game earlier this week. It had a copper, 2 sheep, oasis, plains, a Wheat, 3 hills, and 2 Fishes (plus hill site for the city itself). This is a fairly normative spread, nothing to lift my skirts - I didn't settle the site as I had better locations.
If I had settled the site and it got up to 12 pop, I would have +2 hammers from city, +4 from copper, +1 each from Fish, +6 from the hills, +6 from Sheep +3 from plains tiles (one citizen will work the Oasis). That's 23 base hammers. This is a normal, unexciting site for a coastal city.
If I had settled the site and it got up to 12 pop, I would have +2 hammers from city, +4 from copper, +1 each from Fish, +6 from the hills, +6 from Sheep +3 from plains tiles (one citizen will work the Oasis). That's 23 base hammers. This is a normal, unexciting site for a coastal city.
CornPlanter
Emperor
Oh, so now there is one correct way to play a game...
@ OP if you can easily win with avoiding some of the very good buildings, you may move up to Emperor I guess and start playing with challenge again
HurricaneKnapp
Chieftain
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2013
- Messages
- 17
I agree with most of what's been said, that being Stone Works and Hydro Plants are great, and Stable situational etc. I just thought I'd add that perhaps you shouldn't look at the Hospital as a way to grow the city. Look at it as a way to move citizens to other things, like specialist slots or high production tiles, depending on what you need.
GoodSarmatian
Jokerfied Western Male
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2006
- Messages
- 9,408
The best thing about Stone Works is that it's relative cheap to buy (4
for 1 
. Even if the city has only one stone or marble available I'll still buy it. It really speeds up wonder production.
