What civilizations do you miss in BTS?

[cybrxkhan]

^hey, i just got this off Dictionary.com. it is one of the many definitions of civiliation. the problem is, which one does Firaxis use? we may never know.

 

[TheLastOne36]

Let's force alex to tell us!

 

[cybrxkhan]

right, i was thinking about raiding Firaxis HQ, but i was afraid we'd accidentally burn it down.

 

[Gaius Octavius]

I see we're still debating the meanings of words...

Don't you know that Firaxis' definitions of certain words are not the same as they are for us normal folk?

 

[cybrxkhan]

ah, you are right.

Given definition: Your average Roman soldier.

Normal word: Legionary

Firaxian dictionary word: Praetorian

 

[TheLastOne36]

Hey gaius is back!

 

[Gaius Octavius]

ah, you are right.

Given definition: Your average Roman soldier.

Normal word: Legionary

Firaxian dictionary word: Praetorian

This made typing that last post worth it.

 

[methane]

Definitions for Civilization:

1. an advanced state of human society, in which a high level of culture, science, industry, and government has been reached.
2. those people or nations that have reached such a state.
3. any type of culture, society, etc., of a specific place, time, or group: Greek civilization.

hmm. now which group would apply to Civilization? i think it is number three, with a bit of one and two mixed in. if so, then the "barb" civs, i.e. the NA, Celts, Zulus, etc. would apply.

of course, maybe we should just ask Firaxis their definition of a civilization.

Well, anything in the game can qualify under group 3, and that's what they use in deciding what is a 'civilization'. Now, what criteria they use for deciding which of the many possible 'civilizations' to include in the game is another issue entirely.

I disagree with Number 2.

They don't have to be a state to be a civilization.

The definition isn't using 'state' to mean a government. It's using state in the sense of a state of being. ie: those people or nations that have reached a state of human society in which a high level of culture, science, industry, and government has been reached.

 

[TheLastOne36]

Well, anything in the game can qualify under group 3, and that's what they use in deciding what is a 'civilization'. Now, what criteria they use for deciding which of the many possible 'civilizations' to include in the game is another issue entirely.

How come HRE are in then?

Also now i understand Point 2. thanks!

 

[cybrxkhan]

the HRE falls under definition 1.

 

[TheLastOne36]

Yes but so does Germany. It's basically Germany in another name. Just like there should be a United Kingdom because it is another name of England.

 

[Alexius I]

Lithuania, Indonesia, Iroquois, and other (Cherokee)

The HRE is a little strange, but that's one I can live with, though it would be nice if every Civ had multiple leaders to play as. And the Byzantines are included!!

Alexius

 

[TheLastOne36]

Yah i agree. Every civ who had 1 leader should get 2. (except for civs like the Zulu)

 

[Kushluk]

Well Im tiring of the quote wars myself at this point. I don't think we really disagree even, from reading what you wrote, we merely wrote it in different ways. Anyway, for what its worth.

and about "looking down" and stuff... ha, you know what NA say? "never trust white man because he is an idiot and blah blah blah balh blah no respect blah blah balh no sense of anything blah blah balh".

Hm, that's a good point. I'm not sure if genreal ethnocentirism is the same as, I guess, some supposed relationship between your culture being more advanced than someone.

the NA, the Celts, and the Zulus, when they saw what you consider "superiors", they considered the "superiors" a bunch of idiots and wasteful morons.

yes thats true, and by the same token many, particuarly English, settlers refused to hunt becuase they reckoned hunting to be entertainment, not a serious way to feed themselves. Also they generally refused to learn from the NAs how to gather food or what foods were good/going to kill you.

and as for need for cities... ha, have you ever heard of the Vietnamese? we just have jungle and farms, not that many huge settlements... and see how many huge superpowers we have chased off! heck, we probably don't even need all that advanced weaponry and crap, look what we did to the Americans... and though industrialisation is a very good option, it is not 100% necessary. various peoples with very little industrialization were able to survive for extended periods of time.

In terms of survival, in a basic way, I think that if there is no industralisation there at least has to be some cutural unity. To have group of tribes that have no notion of a nation or a common ethnic group, they probably wont survive conquest by another.

the moving force of mankind is want/need, in my opinion. economics falls under want/need.

I'd add desire to that. Zulus, NAs and Celts missed that part, and that is part of the reason they didn't make it. The Romans, for example, wanted your land, your stuff and your gold. The Chinese wanted, at the very least, for you to acknolege they were number 1, with obvious economic benefits for them. A civilisation like Portugal wanted the fillings out of your teeth. . . I think the impetus to build empire comes from an economic desire for more things, better things, a thrist for consumption.

Hehe @postmodernist - most things that are postmodern aren't hardly ever called postmodern. Postmodern is sort of a label applied to things after they already exist. If I were to define postmodern in a very general sense I'd define it as anything that lacks a main idea, a general philosphy or a grand narative. An interfaith prayer meeting is postmodern, the internet is postmodern to the extreme, most historicisim these days is postmodern. Postmodern is nice when it embraces freedom, not so nice when it embraces enthropy...IMHO.

 

[cybrxkhan]

yay! gotta love Quote Wars: Clash of Civilizations

In terms of survival, in a basic way, I think that if there is no industralisation there at least has to be some cutural unity. To have group of tribes that have no notion of a nation or a common ethnic group, they probably wont survive conquest by another.

"no notion of a nation or a common ethnic group". hmm. well, yes, the NA were not a unified ethnic group. thats why i object to the NA being in, and wouold prefer separate tribes - perhaps the Iroqouis, whom i would consider the most advanced of the peoples in North America (excluding Central America), and whose leaders we actually know.

as for the Celts, its also a similar story, except the average Firaxis customer doesn't know what Celt tribe is what - if we put in the Iceani, or the Galatians, or the Celt-Iberians or whatever, they'd be like "WTH, is this some kind of science fiction???"

the Zulus were a unified state, however. and they DID conquer an empire, though of course it was not to the size of the British Empire. their territory spread a decent area of South Africa.

I'd add desire to that. Zulus, NAs and Celts missed that part, and that is part of the reason they didn't make it. The Romans, for example, wanted your land, your stuff and your gold. The Chinese wanted, at the very least, for you to acknolege they were number 1, with obvious economic benefits for them. A civilisation like Portugal wanted the fillings out of your teeth. . . I think the impetus to build empire comes from an economic desire for more things, better things, a thrist for consumption.

desire is not different from want/need. many times, its the same. im sure you will agree.

the Zulus did "want". they wanted to take conquer their neighbors, which they did. certain NA tribes did want surpemacy over others. the Celts wanted to kick the **** Romans out. but in the end, the economic desires are not for economy, of course, but for yourself. your desires. i.e., you want that money so that you can buy yourself some nice food, nice clothes, nice house, etc. when man invented the concept of money, that made it all the harder to satisfy those desires... back in the old days it was just a simple i give you this for that.

the want of an empire, is, yes, a desire for things, though yes it would not in all cases be economic, though i will daresay it was a dominating reason...

anyhows, the origins for war began somethingl ike this:

city1: OMG! IM RUNNING OUT OF CROPLAND!!! [...] hey, city2 has tons of cropland... and i don't want to starve my kids... i don't want to kill, but i know i can kill... hehehe

city1 people sneak over to city2

city2: Hello, city1 people.

city1: hello... (stab stab)

city2: AHHH!!! (dies)

later...

city3: OMG, did city1 just kill city2 people for some useless piece of land! OMG! maybe they'll try to take our land too! lets make our warriors ready to defend not just against animals... but man as well!!!

later...

city1: OMG!!! we're running out of fields for our crops again! lets go take over city3!!!

city3: OMG, city1 is coming to threaten us! let us ready our warriors!!!

(pom pom pom drums)

and so began war, my children. and that is why apes never kill apes, but man will kill his brother.

that made no sense.

Hehe @postmodernist - most things that are postmodern aren't hardly ever called postmodern. Postmodern is sort of a label applied to things after they already exist. If I were to define postmodern in a very general sense I'd define it as anything that lacks a main idea, a general philosphy or a grand narative. An interfaith prayer meeting is postmodern, the internet is postmodern to the extreme, most historicisim these days is postmodern. Postmodern is nice when it embraces freedom, not so nice when it embraces enthropy...IMHO.

you sound very traditionalist/conservative at saying that. the new world has lost many things the old world once had...


anyhow, i think we do actually agree on some things. thats good. this bash-out was educational, interesting, and fun. i myself would prefer for the Celts and Zulus to be for later expansion, and to fill in the spaces with other deserving contenders, like Vietnam or Indonesia or the Swahili. the civs like the Zulus, Celts, and NA are more in for favor and variety than for being civilized.

 

[TheLastOne36]

That was an ... entertaining post...

 

[methane]

How come HRE are in then?

You know the Firaxis conversation went like this:

Firaxis guy #1) Hey, we should put Charlemagne in this time.
Firaxis guy #2) Cool! While we're at it, we should design a senario around him! So, should he go for France or Germany?
Firaxis guy #1) hmmm, if you give him to one the other will be upset. Can you code it so he can go to either France or Germany?
Firaxis guy #2) I can't code that, I'm too busy working on my scenario! Besides, we'd have to make sure the French and German civs are balanced then, and balancing stuff is more work.
Firaxis guy #1) Well, I suppose we can create the Frankish civilization for him
Firaxis guy #2) The what?
Firaxis guy #1) It was a union of much of France, Germany, and northern Italy. It was only really big during Charlemagne's time.
Firaxis guy #2) Only that big during his lifetime? Doesn't sound that impressive.
Firaxis guy #1) Yeah, but it had some effects, it was kind of the inspiration for the later Holy Roman Empire
Firaxis guy #2) Hey, I've heard of that! Make him the head of that!
Firaxis guy #1) But...it's not exactly the same thing.
Firaxis guy #2) Doesn't matter, you said it was an inspiration. And we can always use more Roman civs in the game
Firaxis guy #1) ...ummm...OK

**********time passes***********

Firaxis guy #1) Hey, you know with HRE in the game, we won't have space for that Polish civ we were planning.
Firaxis guy #2) That's OK, noone will miss it.

 

[TheLastOne36]

if that actually happened... Fireaxis is going bye-bye

 

[cybrxkhan]

probably someone similar happened to Vietnam too...

 

[TheJopa]

I'm sure 3 days after BtS releases you will have dozens of mods for Poland and other civs. I personally don't see any difference whether civ I play except trait combos and UU and UB. I don't care what languages units will speak when I click on them or about flag. We could have every culture ever exiting in the world in and game wouldn't be any better or worse, it is game mechanics that make game better or worse.


In addition to sennomulo great list of missing civs I would add:

I am extremely upset at Firaxis' continued refusal to add the following important civs: Liechtenstein, Vatican City, Barbados, Scientist in Antarctica, Disputed Territory, Sealand, the Weimar Republic, the German Confederation, the Third Reich, West Germany, East Germany, the Unholy Roman Empire, Prussia, Deutschland and the Free City of Danzig.

Liburni
Tannu Tuva
Free City of Dubrovnik/Republic of Ragusa
Croatia!!!
N.W.A. (Led by Ice Cube - Aggressive/Charismatic)