What constitutes cheating when attemping a UHV?

[Lone Wolf]

Leif Erikson's trick is not even an exploit. You can much more easily be the first to build a city in America.

I don't play, but I am strongly tempted to do that...

Why not just make stability and plague softer, like I did?

 

[st.lucifer]

After 33 voters have completed the poll, all but one voter (st.lucifer) consider that using Worldbuilder for any purpose constitutes cheating.

It would certainly be interesting to hear why st.lucifer is the odd-voter out in this case.

I was thinking about it from the perspective of 'do I ever use WB at the start of a game to check to see if my UHV is still possible?' and the answer is yes, almost always - if I'm not playing an ancient civ, I'll want to look around to make sure I'm not wasting my time on that start. With the most recent patch, the AI tends to found some different cities than it used to, and I occasionally check the WB to see what they've done with the world. I don't use that information to drive my own development, I just want to see what's going on.
I'm not talking about using WB to give myself stacks of modern armor or anything. I just felt like there was a little more gray area than the question allowed for, so I went with #2.

 

[say1988]

Worldbuilder is cheating. Yes, you can use it to minimal impact, and I will use it to check the state of the world, but you can gain an advantage.

The others are exploits. Using game mechanics to your benefit in a way that was not intended. Not that that is bad. Now the last one is pretty hard on the player, but I would still consider it an exploit.
Exploits (and yes, even cheating) can be fun and I will use them, in single player games, depending on how I play that day.
I might play a Maya game where I limit myself to central America (without entering Aztec territory), then another where I claim Tenochtitlan as my capital. Bpth valid ways to play, but I know which one I would be more proud of.

EDIT: Other exploits (such as the galley transport) are just neat and intelligent and deserve their own points.

 

[3Miro]

There may be a "gray area" in the WB, but I never use it. To check if the current situation is winnable, playing for a few turns is usually enough.

Starting as one civ and then switching does give some unfair advantages. Normally no civ would start and play in a way to specifically benefit another civ. That is in my opinion the same as changing the AI code to force the opponent to a specific behavior.

Exploits are not cheating since they follow all the "rules" of the game, but hey can spoil the fun anyways. I don't think the galley flipping or the chain of caravels or building the Spanish capital in Losbon are working "as intended".

 

[KnightoftheStar]

WB is definitely cheating, I never use it.

As far as going from one civ to another, it really depends. I like doing that from a 3000 BC start just so I can see how the world evolves up until I hop ship over to the civ in question I want to play as, I also sometimes use that as a proverbial life-boat if I screw up badly with my starting civ. I only see that as cheating if I do something that blatantly favors said new civ I would play, like for example playing as Mongolia after playing China and disbanding the entire Chinese army or something to that effect. The game I'm doing right now with Spain I started as Rome going for the UHV and just fell short, so decided to try Spain with two cities in Spain and no soldiers in any of the places that were expected to flip as well as three in France and one in Britain, since Spain has to compete with those two I wouldn't see that as cheating really since each got a better than usual start.

 

[sgrig]

Does looking at the Python code constitute cheating? Not modifying it, but just looking to understand better what affects stability, how secessions are triggered, how are UHVs calculated?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Does looking at the Python code constitute cheating? Not modifying it, but just looking to understand better what affects stability, how secessions are triggered, how are UHVs calculated?

No, that shouldn't count. Your numerical stability display was key for my Roman conquests (knowing when to liberate a city, when my economy isn't growing, etc).

But it is vital to remember that information - in the sense of raw data - is not knowledge; that knowledge is not wisdom; and that wisdom is not foresight. But information is the first essential step to all of these.
Arthur Clarke

 

[blizzrd]

Does looking at the Python code constitute cheating? Not modifying it, but just looking to understand better what affects stability, how secessions are triggered, how are UHVs calculated?

Not at all. But given the already large number of events in the game which require the use of a random number generator, I think knowing preciesly what causes certain coded events in the game would just leave me more frustrated with the random number generator than satisfied with knowing the exact information.

 

[blizzrd]

But it is vital to remember that information - in the sense of raw data - is not knowledge; that knowledge is not wisdom; and that wisdom is not foresight. But information is the first essential step to all of these.
Arthur Clarke

Use force just for good, Luke.

 

[mushyman]

My, what a question! My personal view is that you should be able to attain the UHV for each civ without the use of these kinds of exploits. WB abuse goes without saying, and starting with an earlier civ for the express purpose of helping a later UHV is definitely cheating (as opposed to playing "properly", which is fine).

Squatting is something I find.... distasteful. It's intentionally taking advantage of one of the most unique and cool aspects of the mod to do something that is very much against the spirit of the mod. In my most humble opinion, of course
But it does seem a bit cheap to me to, for example, habitually squat the Spanish capital on Lisbon.

Not that there is anything wrong with using these exploits, and I appreciate they are very necessary for some of the harder challenges. AnotherPacifist should be applauded for his creativity and dedication especially!
For a "standard", UHV style victory attempt, though, I would consider all of these as a bit of a cheat.

Apart from the Viking galley flip though - that's way too awesome and useless to be cheating

 

[dragodon64]

I use the worldbuilder quite often. Not to change things, but instead to view the change in empires every century or so. Until the end, when you can see the entire history of the world this is the only way to really appreciate all thats going on outside of your empire.

 

[Phallus]

Simply opening the worldbuilder does not constitute cheating. First of all, I like a semblance of realism in my games, so that the whole of Europe isn't Jewish and Confucianism isn't founded in Babylon etc. Second, it adds to the experience to see what is happening in the four corners of the world.

I will also sometimes intervene if I see a historically relevant nation being swallowed up by independents. Which is probably the opposite of cheating because a world of indies makes for a very dull game.

 

[BurnEmDown]

When I descended to civil war as Germany in 1938 going for the UHV I reloaded instantly and liberated the middle east, which was enough to keep me stable. I guess it's kinda cheating but I know I can do it all over again without going into the middle east again, why should I play all over again from 600 to 1938?