What do you do when you realize you're not playing optimally?

[Wodhann]

I don't really think it should count as cheating. Besides being single player, the game lets you make multiple save files (other games don't). Honestly, if you played, say, Final Fantasy VII, should you delete your file if you die on disc 3? Or do you just load the save and try again?

The difference is FF7 was designed as an intrinsically single-player game whereas Civ 5 is a multiplayer game which can be (and most often is) played alone. There's a world of difference between the two of them.

My mindset is as such: Can I savescum in a multiplayer game with human players? No. So doing that in a single player game feels like taking unfair advantage to win.

Now, I'm not "judging" anyone. Hell, I myself abuse of save-state in certain retro games when playing them in emulator. But here's the thing, when I do, I know I'm cheating. In the end, it's all about your goals and how you want to spend your time, after all.

 

[Strec]

The difference is FF7 was designed as an intrinsically single-player game whereas Civ 5 is a multiplayer game which can be (and most often is) played alone.

Absolutly no. Long time players may remember of long they needed to cry to have a correct multiplayer stuff in Civ series.

 

[Funak]

The difference is FF7 was designed as an intrinsically single-player game whereas Civ 5 is a multiplayer game which can be (and most often is) played alone. There's a world of difference between the two of them.

My mindset is as such: Can I savescum in a multiplayer game with human players? No. So doing that in a single player game feels like taking unfair advantage to win.

Now, I'm not "judging" anyone. Hell, I myself abuse of save-state in certain retro games when playing them in emulator. But here's the thing, when I do, I know I'm cheating. In the end, it's all about your goals and how you want to spend your time, after all.

Yeah, savescumming in civ5 to me is like backing up a few moves when playing chess vs a chessbot. It might be interesting to see what would have happen sometimes, but it is clearly cheating and it is clearly giving you an unfair advantage over the AI.

 

[Strigvir]

whereas Civ 5 is a multiplayer game

Wrong, civ5 is an AAA product made for the whole purpose of selling copies with minimum investment. Basically, a skyrim of strategy games.

 

[Scuts]

The only time I make a save and revert back to it is when I'm starting a world wonder. If I get beat to it I will go back and build something else instead.

Every other time I generally roll with the punches, but that's something that bothers me a lot.

 

[Der_Zorn_gottes]

In the end, it's all about your goals and how you want to spend your time, after all.

Exactly.

You need to be honest to yourself. If you will feel miserable for the rest of you game, because you lost that specific wonder, go on an cheat it, if it makes you enjoy the rest of the game more.
If you fell bad about reloading, or are bored because you just cruise control for the rest of the game - don`t reload.
In the end, playing a single player game is only about maximizing you own pleasure. If "cheating" helps to that end, by all means go ahead and cheat.

Of course, as soon as other humans are involved, in whatever way (be it a multiplayer game or a direct competition such as HOF games, or just boasting about your prowess in the forums) then cheating is certainly a no-go.

 

[Funak]

Exactly.

You need to be honest to yourself. If you will feel miserable for the rest of you game, because you lost that specific wonder, go on an cheat it, if it makes you enjoy the rest of the game more.
If you fell bad about reloading, or are bored because you just cruise control for the rest of the game - don`t reload.
In the end, playing a single player game is only about maximizing you own pleasure. If "cheating" helps to that end, by all means go ahead and cheat.

Of course, as soon as other humans are involved, in whatever way (be it a multiplayer game or a direct competition such as HOF games, or just boasting about your prowess in the forums) then cheating is certainly a no-go.

Exactly, if you want to cheat, go ahead and cheat. No one is going to stop you. But it is cheating, it is not clever use of game mechanics, or an intended playstyle, it is exploiting a game recovery mechanic to gain an advantage over the AI.

 

[Takagi Hiro]

I guess I just don't get it. It's not like I'm going back because I missed a wonder, lost a unit, or even lost a war. I'm going back because I didn't select a tile I intended to select in the first place. I consider the first scenario cheating, certainly, and I'll never do it, but the latter is just reloading to fix an oversight. The AI is always working the tiles it wants and even getting help simply for being an AI. If I mistakenly forget to switch a tile, just what exactly is so exploitative about this? Maybe I'm just ignorant.

 

[Anssi]

The most common reload cause for me is automated movement, I order something to go place X, it moves 2 tiles next to hidden barbarian.

 

[Wodhann]

Absolutly no. Long time players may remember of long they needed to cry to have a correct multiplayer stuff in Civ series.

When I mean "multi-player", I mean in the sense of a game with "many players', not necessarily them being human.

What I mean is: FF7 is a game made for one person to overcome its obstacles in order to win (the disparity between the player and the pc is not even close to comparison), whereas Civ is a game where many entities (humans or pc) compete for victory in equal grounds.

 

[callmewoof]

For calling Civ V a multiplayer game that can be single-player played, are you forgetting that Civ I was single only? And Civ II was single only until they added in multiplayer in a seperate purchase later? Yes, they offer multiplayer now, but the series started single player, and Civ V is just another in the line of exact same Civ games. It isn't a spinoff (Beyond Earth) and it isn't a reboot. It's another Civ in the Civ games. Started Single, stayed single, added multi.

 

[Wodhann]

I literally just explained what I meant by "multiplayer".

 

[callmewoof]

I literally just explained what I meant by "multiplayer".

Ah sorry. Still, any game has multiple players. Super Mario Bros? You vs the AI - one wins one loses. FF7? You vs enemies that work from AI. If you want to say that Civ is multi-player (multiple player AI), it's no different. Human + any number of AI's working towards their own goal.

The disparity in human vs AI in ff7 isn't any different than choosing settler difficulty gaining human bonuses, or deity giving AI bonuses. Don't level up enough in ff7 and you might be too weak to fight a boss. Ignore military units in civ and watch the AI enjoy taking your poorly defended cities with all those pretty wonders. A single player game is just that - one human vs any number of AI. Multi-player is two plus humans. You can't really say that civ has multiple AI's, since they all play from the exact same algorithms and code, the only difference being a few variables having different values giving the impression of "different" AI.

 

[Funak]

Ah sorry. Still, any game has multiple players. Super Mario Bros? You vs the AI - one wins one loses. FF7? You vs enemies that work from AI. If you want to say that Civ is multi-player (multiple player AI), it's no different. Human + any number of AI's working towards their own goal.

Taking super mario as an example. If you were playing the first super mario on an emulator, where you have the ability to rewind like 5 sec, and you used it to rewind whenever you failed a jump, or whenever you get hit, losing your flame-flower. You'd say that was cheating right? You would say that was lame, right?

 

[Wodhann]

Ah sorry. Still, any game has multiple players. Super Mario Bros? You vs the AI - one wins one loses. FF7? You vs enemies that work from AI. If you want to say that Civ is multi-player (multiple player AI), it's no different. Human + any number of AI's working towards their own goal.

The disparity in human vs AI in ff7 isn't any different than choosing settler difficulty gaining human bonuses, or deity giving AI bonuses. Don't level up enough in ff7 and you might be too weak to fight a boss. Ignore military units in civ and watch the AI enjoy taking your poorly defended cities with all those pretty wonders. A single player game is just that - one human vs any number of AI. Multi-player is two plus humans. You can't really say that civ has multiple AI's, since they all play from the exact same algorithms and code, the only difference being a few variables having different values giving the impression of "different" AI.

The thing is, the AI isn't "competing" in those single-player games. The AI doesn't "win". They are setting up obstacles for you to prevent you from winning. In a sense the AI is more like the deck in a game solitaire. The "AI" is part of the game itself, it's a manifestation of the game. The disparity between the player and the AI is simply the fact that the AI is the game.

This is why saving and loading is not really cheating, because you are literally the only one "playing" the game. Your progress is entirely your own. There is no AI player competing against you for victory. Thus it's only fair to allow you to save to keep the game fun (you wouldn't want to have to restart the entire game every time you died in FF7).

Whereas in a game like Civ, or any game with multiple players, AI or human, the players are separate entities from the "game" itself. They are competing against you for victory and have the same means to do it as you (with give or take a few tweaks to compensate AI's inteligence). So allowing you to savescum gives you an advantage the others don't have.

As far as state-saving in single player style games go, I would say it's cheating not because you're giving yourself unfair advantage over other players, but more like giving yourself unfair advantage over what the developers intended; in other words, doing the difficulty-tuning yourself in your favor.
(I don't care and do it anyway though - life is short)

 

[callmewoof]

Taking super mario as an example. If you were playing the first super mario on an emulator, where you have the ability to rewind like 5 sec, and you used it to rewind whenever you failed a jump, or whenever you get hit, losing your flame-flower. You'd say that was cheating right? You would say that was lame, right?

Funny you ask that. I'm really big into the TAS (tool assisted speedrun) scene. From the performances at each "games done quick" fundraising marathons to the art in general. But yes I see your point. However, Nintendo neither intended to rewind nor programmed the game to do that naturally. Civ does.

Further proof: the Random Seed option in the advanced setup; it exists for the sole purpose of "we know people will reload for various reasons, and we're cool with that, so would you prefer the same chain of predicted events, or a new roll of the dice?"

Wodhann - the AI does win. The prize? Continuing to live! Evidence:

Spoiler :

 

[Der_Zorn_gottes]

When I mean "multi-player", I mean in the sense of a game with "many players', not necessarily them being human.

What I mean is: FF7 is a game made for one person to overcome its obstacles in order to win (the disparity between the player and the pc is not even close to comparison), whereas Civ is a game where many entities (humans or pc) compete for victory in equal grounds.

This is where we disagree. I do not accept the AI as a player that I have to respect. It is a tool, and I can use a tool in whichever way I like.

 

[Atlas627]

I guess I just don't get it. It's not like I'm going back because I missed a wonder, lost a unit, or even lost a war. I'm going back because I didn't select a tile I intended to select in the first place. I consider the first scenario cheating, certainly, and I'll never do it, but the latter is just reloading to fix an oversight. The AI is always working the tiles it wants and even getting help simply for being an AI. If I mistakenly forget to switch a tile, just what exactly is so exploitative about this? Maybe I'm just ignorant.

I do exactly this same thing. I don't think you're being ignorant at all. Even against humans I would just call this "sportsmanlike play" for your opponents to allow you to undo this type of mistake where you both know that's what you meant to do, you just screwed up. You aren't changing your mind based off of new information, you just clicked the button or played the card or made the move too fast. Why should you be penalized for saving everyone time? Would they rather you play so meticulously you never make a mistake but waste tons of time?

Only in a super competitive setting would this be considered cheating. You certainly aren't doing anything wrong.

 

[Funak]

Funny you ask that. I'm really big into the TAS (tool assisted speedrun) scene. From the performances at each "games done quick" fundraising marathons to the art in general. But yes I see your point. However, Nintendo neither intended to rewind nor programmed the game to do that naturally. Civ does.

Further proof: the Random Seed option in the advanced setup; it exists for the sole purpose of "we know people will reload for various reasons, and we're cool with that, so would you prefer the same chain of predicted events, or a new roll of the dice?"

Wodhann - the AI does win. The prize? Continuing to live! Evidence:

Spoiler :

The save-load system in civ is probably there for saving and loading. Mostly because an average civ-match takes 7 centuries and most people can't play that in one go. Mario-stages takes less than 5 minutes, most people can set aside that time.
About that random seed option, that's probably there for crashes, making sure you can do the exact same thing you did the last time after a crash-recovery.

 

[Wodhann]

This is where we disagree. I do not accept the AI as a player that I have to respect.

Nothing you quoted implies that. And I never said it either.

It's not about respect. I'm talking about what is cheating, in the first place. Cheating against a computer at most takes away a respective portion of your merit of winning, but of course the AI has no feelings so it's all a matter of how you feel about it.