What do you think are over/underpowered civs in VP?

[salty mud]

Most of the balance in this mod seems pretty good, but I am wondering if you think there are some civs more powerful than others.

I have yet to play Poland, but I am aware their policy bonus is viewed as very powerful. My current game is with Austria and I think their ability, if used properly, is comically powerful. Out of 12 city states, I have marriages with 9, and my influence with these is off the charts. The faith, culture and luxuries are rolling in. I would consider upping the cost of subsequent marriages as the +100 for each one is pretty inconsequential, especially in the mid/late game.

I may be wrong, but I can't get excited over bonuses like Denmark's that provide purely military bonuses. An extra movement for embarked units is nice, but it's not going to help me get cities out, units trained or wonders built.

 

[Stalker0]

Austria's power is amazing....until its not. I find that late game they start to flounder as civs with more direct economic or military bonuses start to eat up those CS. On higher difficulties I don't consider them a top Civ, just a very nice and fun one.

 

[tothePAIN]

Most powerful in the hands of humans? Or the AI?

Denmark is a tough Civ but some civs with purely military bonuses can be pretty strong - Sweden for instance.

 

[Bromar1]

England is probably the most "OP" civ

 

[arthurF]

Strictly as an AI player, I believe that Zulu is quite strong. They seem to eat up all available space, and then conquer. This is even before their special unit appears. No idea why.

 

[Dolen2]

Also it depends on Map Size, like Austria is so op compared to other diplomacy focused civs on Large and above.

 

[DeAnno]

As long as they have their city food playing as Spain is sort of like getting to be an AI. Strong start then do a Conq push and then you can maybe settle distant lands with the Conqs after it's so sick.

 

[Favorius]

Most of the balance in this mod seems pretty good, but I am wondering if you think there are some civs more powerful than others.

I have yet to play Poland, but I am aware their policy bonus is viewed as very powerful. My current game is with Austria and I think their ability, if used properly, is comically powerful. Out of 12 city states, I have marriages with 9, and my influence with these is off the charts. The faith, culture and luxuries are rolling in. I would consider upping the cost of subsequent marriages as the +100 for each one is pretty inconsequential, especially in the mid/late game.

I may be wrong, but I can't get excited over bonuses like Denmark's that provide purely military bonuses. An extra movement for embarked units is nice, but it's not going to help me get cities out, units trained or wonders built.

You do not get enemy cities as Denmark, you do not need enemy territory. You need enemy to build improvements so you can pillage, pillage and pillage. In the end their economy will be in ruins and they will be offering their own cities to you in peace. They not only get extra move for embark, but embark and move at the same turn, have combat bonus on pillaged tiles.

As for Austria, their only bonus for early game is 50% rewards from CS. This is so random, you may find 1 CS or 8 CSs until renaissance based on map. They may give nice missions or crap missions (build great lighthouse while having no coastal city). While being very fun and satisfying to play, I do not think Austria is even close OP,

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

I think the answers differs greatly whether it's about AI performance with a particular civ or the civ in human hands.
IMO in human hands Spain (and Carthage to an extent for similar reasons)is the most OP civ in the game by a far margin, The Aztecs ability to chain Golden ages from the very beginning of the game is ridiculous, France and Assyria (IMO france> Assyria) are kind of unbeatable once they start to capture the first couple of cities and Mongolia ofc. for their ridiculous cavalry forces.
The worst is by a huge margin is Venice (it's much stronger than vanilla venice but it's still Venice) followed directly by the Zulus (negligible bonuses and lost half of their UA with the recent changes to tributes).

In AI hands the best civs are consistently Songhai, Mongolia, China and Ethiopia in case it's not surrounded by warmongers; those three are always on the top of the score board in my games (Emperor diffculty and sometimes immortal) especially Mongolia.
The worst performance in AI hands goes to India (free land for everyone), Venice and the Zulus.

 

[bef1993]

Ottomans always seemed very strong for me. Awesome unique ability, awesome unit and building

 

[Drakle]

I find AI Austria to always be a top competitor. Even in the early game, they seem to do well despite not having much of a bonus, and then in the latter game they really take off and aggressively compete for city-states.

Siam is also consistently strong.

Aztecs are one of the biggest disparities between human and AI. In human hands they are amazing, but the AI doesn't really seem to do well with them.

Poland I've never seen do really well. Maybe they should get a free policy after picking their first policy, so they get a double-tap. The nothing until Classic and how they expand and build makes them really easy to roll over.

I thought Persia was a bit weak until I used an Immortal army in a golden age to thrash an enemy civ with twice my numbers in terms of units. AI Persia is kinda middling performance.

 

[Stalker0]

Venice is definitely the weakest AI civ

 

[DeAnno]

Aztecs are one of the biggest disparities between human and AI. In human hands they are amazing, but the AI doesn't really seem to do well with them.

I feel like AI Monty really doesn't hesitate to bring a Jag-Spear carpet to the human to kill him early in the way that a lot of other AIs do. He doesn't always do great himself but he's uniquely threatening to the human when nearby.

 

[Kim Dong Un]

I'd say Ethiopia is probably the most consistent civ I see at/near the top of my games, although I imagine they're more prone to defeat on the highest difficulty. I wouldn't necessarily say they're OP, but their early focus on religion/culture just tends to get them ahead of the pack most of the time.

The worst performance in AI hands goes to India (free land for everyone)

I actually find India usually doing quite well in my king/emperor games; I would not say Gandhi is under-powered.

 

[salty mud]

I'd say Ethiopia is probably the most consistent civ I see at/near the top of my games, although I imagine they're more prone to defeat on the highest difficulty. I wouldn't necessarily say they're OP, but their early focus on religion/culture just tends to get them ahead of the pack most of the time.

I actually find India usually doing quite well in my king/emperor games; I would not say Gandhi is under-powered.

In my current game, Ethiopia didn't get passed two cities and was stamped out by the Iroquois. And Gandhi is a vassal to the Iroqouis.

 

[Cokolwiek]

I have yet to play Poland, but I am aware their policy bonus is viewed as very powerful

That was the case in vanilla, but only due to both overpowered lancer replacement and free policies. It was quite awkward to watch as a someone from Poland.
I see Poland as mediocre now, at best. And in the hands of the computer it's just played wrong. As with many tradition factions it tends to become a military pushover that after a nice progress in the early game has too few cities, too little production, too little military supply, and too much poorly protected wonders to not to be destroyed. It could get quite decent both with flat map rich in pastures and pantheon that gives culture from that, but that's it.
In my observations military fragility of tradition factions and they lack of aggressiveness is now one of the main difficulty problems of the mod. I had a break of

I agree that England is very powerful at the moment, it feels like cheating to play as. It is very weak however as an enemy.
Spain is the single most overpowered nation as of now in my view. Mainly because early yields trample late yields. And early food and early religion is lots of early yields that will provide exponential growth of other yields as the game progresses.
Playing Sweden, Japan, Mongols, or Aztecs as wide warmongers is like playing chieftain difficulty.
China and Germany are usually pure hell if not dealt with in the first part of the game, and I think are the most well-rounded to play as.
And the special place go to Byzantium. I feel like not having to be troubled with religion race is the single most unique and tranquilizing ability any faction can have. If rage quit exist in civilization, I am sure it is loosing a religion race that's generating it.

 

[Stalker0]

I see Poland as mediocre now, at best.

Poland gets a massive boost in the late game when it chooses its ideology, starting with 3 policies right off the bat. Its a major shot in the arm. The civ can look lackluster for a long time but it gets a very solid boost in the late game that makes it competitive. Its not top tier but I do not think Poland underperforms.

On China, I still think China's problem is the potential for optimization around China's WLTED. If you just use China's abilities as is, its a solid civ, but nothing too amazing. However, if you optimize your policies, wonders, and religion on WLTKD, you become a dominant powerhouse living under the sun of eternal WLTED. Personally I would like to see China's ability shift away from generating WLTED days and towards its other strengths, as I think the synergies are too good if you know how to optimize it.

 

[tothePAIN]

I feel like AI Monty really doesn't hesitate to bring a Jag-Spear carpet to the human to kill him early in the way that a lot of other AIs do. He doesn't always do great himself but he's uniquely threatening to the human when nearby.

Persia is also a strong AI warmonger that can threaten a human player when it has immortals. If you're next to Darius when he has his first Golden Age... bad day.

Civilizations that are warmongers are better in human hands and worse in AI hands. The more generalist a civ is, the better the AI is at using it. The AI struggles with Warmongering or civs that have to do things slightly differently, or that depend on saving up gold for a mass upgrade and utilization of a UU.

Spain right now is pretty strong, but still suffers from the fact that they don't have any military advantages until their UU.

Songhai is probably the most consistent warmonger in both AI and human hands.

 

[Cokolwiek]

However, if you optimize your policies, wonders, and religion on WLTKD, you become a dominant powerhouse living under the sun of eternal WLTED. Personally I would like to see China's ability shift away from generating WLTED days and towards its other strengths, as I think the synergies are too good if you know how to optimize it.

Yeah, I was referring to maximizing their population potential. And I am also in favor of making them less one mechanic specific.

Civilizations that are warmongers are better in human hands and worse in AI hands. The more generalist a civ is, the better the AI is at using it.

Good observation, I agree completely.

Spain right now is pretty strong, but still suffers from the fact that they don't have any military advantages until their UU.

I don't think that it suffers from that fact. They bonuses are easily convertible to any advantage, just because food means hammers. And hammers mean everything.

 

[tothePAIN]

Yeah, I was referring to maximizing their population potential. And I am also in favor of making them less one mechanic specific.



Good observation, I agree completely.



I don't think that it suffers from that fact. They bonuses are easily convertible to any advantage, just because food means hammers. And hammers mean everything.

Sure. Spain right now is actually extremely strong in human hands because humans can guarantee founding and enhancing quickly by going authority, doing a spear rush, and conquering a few cities for an influx of faith (and getting Hero Worship and Orders, etc.)

But the AI doesn't do that, so... thank goodness.