lets say the native americans had the same immunity to european diseases, and empires such as the aztec and the inca were not immpresed w/ the spanish to teh pint of declaring them gods, its highly probable cortez would had been defeated, would european powers fo the time continue an all time invasion? or would these empires had eventually survived and modernised like japan and far east civs
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what if......aztec survival
- Thread starter stalin006
- Start date
onejayhawk
Afflicted with reason
Rubbish. The answer is one word. Gold. Because of the wealth of the Aztecs any amount of force would have been seen as justified. In the end a more difficult struggle would have helped the Spanish position. More men and arms would have been sent and a stronger colonial government set up.
It is interesting to note that even though the English trailed the Spanish by more than 100 years, the English were much more successful in the long run. In short the discovery of gold hindered the Spanish. All that they imported from the colonies in quantity was money, which gave the English a target for piracy. The English imported WEALTH: timber, ship stores, fur, tobacco and other trade goods, fish, whale oil. In other words things which were used, creating jobs, skilled workers, new technology, all of which benefited the whole of English society. It is no coincidence that the industrial revolution was sounded in Britich industry.
J
It is interesting to note that even though the English trailed the Spanish by more than 100 years, the English were much more successful in the long run. In short the discovery of gold hindered the Spanish. All that they imported from the colonies in quantity was money, which gave the English a target for piracy. The English imported WEALTH: timber, ship stores, fur, tobacco and other trade goods, fish, whale oil. In other words things which were used, creating jobs, skilled workers, new technology, all of which benefited the whole of English society. It is no coincidence that the industrial revolution was sounded in Britich industry.
J
Loaf Warden
(no party affiliation)
My understanding is that the Aztecs were more or less in decline anyway. I've read some theories to the effect that they would have soon been replaced by another Mexican people--the Tarascans, I believe--had the Spanish not arrived. I don't know the theory in detail, so I can't make a very strong case about it here. At any rate, I feel the Aztec Empire could not have survived unless they had abolished human sacrifice--or at least cut it way back. They were squandering astounding amounts of manpower in sacrificing to their gods, and that would definitely have been a hindrance to further thriving as a civilization.
Octavian X
is not a pipe.
Actually, the Aztecs were at their peak when the Spanish came.
In the unlikely event that the Aztecs did survive European conquest, I believe that they would have continued to thrive. They were advanced in some areas the Europeans were, and even in areas they know nothing about. At the time, Tenochitlan (I know I misspelled it), the Aztec capital, was one of the most populous cities in the world.
In the unlikely event that the Aztecs did survive European conquest, I believe that they would have continued to thrive. They were advanced in some areas the Europeans were, and even in areas they know nothing about. At the time, Tenochitlan (I know I misspelled it), the Aztec capital, was one of the most populous cities in the world.
napoleon526
Emperor
It's kind of a miracle that the Spanish won anyway. Cotez had only about 200 men, but was helped by the fact that they had some horses (the aztecs thought that man and horse were one giant beast) and Montezuma's belief that Cortez was the ancient figure Quetzacoatal (sp?) from Aztec mythology. By the time the aztecs figured out that the strangers were really invaders, their city had been decimated by disease and Cortez had made alliances with the various other tribes in the area who were envious of the Aztecs' power.
Monteczuma was finally defeated at the Battle of Otumba. The few hundred spanish and their allies were heavily outnumbered by the Aztec army, but Cortez himself led the few remaining Spanish cavalry in a charge on the enemy's center, rupturing their line and scatering their forces.
Contrary to common belief, firearms did not have a great impact on the conquest of of Mexico. Cortez's force had at most 4 or 5 primitive arquebuses, which were unreliable. Their main tactical advantage came from the fact that they had weapons and armor made of steel. These made the armored Spanish troops, armed with swords and pikes, much more effective in combat than the aztec forces, who used spears and arrows made of obsidian and who usually fought naked.
Monteczuma was finally defeated at the Battle of Otumba. The few hundred spanish and their allies were heavily outnumbered by the Aztec army, but Cortez himself led the few remaining Spanish cavalry in a charge on the enemy's center, rupturing their line and scatering their forces.
Contrary to common belief, firearms did not have a great impact on the conquest of of Mexico. Cortez's force had at most 4 or 5 primitive arquebuses, which were unreliable. Their main tactical advantage came from the fact that they had weapons and armor made of steel. These made the armored Spanish troops, armed with swords and pikes, much more effective in combat than the aztec forces, who used spears and arrows made of obsidian and who usually fought naked.
G-Man
A One Man's War
2-3-4
The europeans would've tried to invade, were beaten, and were forced to create a trade based relations with the aztecs as it was the only way they could've gotten their gold. With the european technology they'll get, aztecs would soon have gotten powerful enough to control south America, thus making all S. Americans into aztecs. With so many people considering themselves to be a part of the same civilization, I doubt anyone will be able to control them for a long time..
The europeans would've tried to invade, were beaten, and were forced to create a trade based relations with the aztecs as it was the only way they could've gotten their gold. With the european technology they'll get, aztecs would soon have gotten powerful enough to control south America, thus making all S. Americans into aztecs. With so many people considering themselves to be a part of the same civilization, I doubt anyone will be able to control them for a long time..
EdwardTking
Deity
I read a sci-fi book about an alternative reality in which Cortez was seduced by an aztec slave girl and defected to the Aztecs.
The Aztecs ended up by conquering the world by the 1990s.
I think it was called "Aztec Century".
The Aztecs ended up by conquering the world by the 1990s.
I think it was called "Aztec Century".
I thought about that too (more along the lines of "What if Columbus hadn't discovered the Americas"). I don't know much about the history of that region, but...
I did hear on the Discovery Channel once that Spain actually sent another group of troops to take Cortez back to Spain.. But, supposing something like that happened (and even if brief contact was made), this is what I think would have happened...
The Aztecs (and surrounding tribes/kingdoms) probably still would have suffered from smallpox. Also, other cultures would have jumped on the oppurtunity, and conquered the Aztecs. With the trade of guns and horses, the meso-american region would probably be thrown into a power vacuum. If they Aztecs were "first come first serve" (due to their gold), then their conquests would have expanded. (I'm not sure where to, though). But, with the trade of horses and guns for furs, many North American cultures would have flourished (Nanajo (even though they came about later) Souix, Illinois, Iroquois, and maybe some Northwest/Northern tribes later on).
I think the Aztecs (even if they did have decreased size due to desease) could have controled the entire Carrabien. (sort of like Rome and the Medditeranian). The Aztecs main rival might have been the Inca (I think they were around the same time as the Aztecs), which could have blocked, or stalled their entry into South America.
I did hear on the Discovery Channel once that Spain actually sent another group of troops to take Cortez back to Spain.. But, supposing something like that happened (and even if brief contact was made), this is what I think would have happened...
The Aztecs (and surrounding tribes/kingdoms) probably still would have suffered from smallpox. Also, other cultures would have jumped on the oppurtunity, and conquered the Aztecs. With the trade of guns and horses, the meso-american region would probably be thrown into a power vacuum. If they Aztecs were "first come first serve" (due to their gold), then their conquests would have expanded. (I'm not sure where to, though). But, with the trade of horses and guns for furs, many North American cultures would have flourished (Nanajo (even though they came about later) Souix, Illinois, Iroquois, and maybe some Northwest/Northern tribes later on).
I think the Aztecs (even if they did have decreased size due to desease) could have controled the entire Carrabien. (sort of like Rome and the Medditeranian). The Aztecs main rival might have been the Inca (I think they were around the same time as the Aztecs), which could have blocked, or stalled their entry into South America.
If I'm not remembering the wrong tribe/people, the Tarascans were in a downward spiral where the Aztecs were concerned. They were the one tribe in the area the Aztecs did not directly control, and everytime they directly fought them, the Aztecs lost. However, the Aztecs, by the time of the Spanish arrival, controlled all the land surrounding the Tarascans, and had cut off the supply of salt. If it wasnt for the Spanish, they'd likely have succumbed sooner or later.
As to what would happen if the Spanish hadnt showed up, I'd suspect that the Aztecs would keep on expanding for a little bit, but unless someone invented something radical (Such as importing llamas from the Incas and figuring out how to use carriages with them), there'd be a definite limit to how far they could expand, and they likely would self destruct like all the other major empires in the area eventually did. (Remember, all trade was conducted by porters)
If the Aztecs were running things, I suppose I would be standing on top of a pyramid cutting poster's hearts out.
Le Petit Prince
Communist Comrade
Ive read one that was like: the Great Plague have been more mortal in Europe so that 3/4 of the population died instead of 1/3 so European countries didnt have the ressource to do the Explorations...The Aztec evoluated and the America is dominated by Aztec and NorthAmerindiens...no USA ....
its name was the nose of cleopatra (sylverberg) I never finished the story cause i lost my book...
Desmond Hawkins
Deity
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2002
- Messages
- 9,922
Decline. The disease would have got them anyways.
Ehecatl Atzin
Lore Master
Some of you guys mentioned the Tarasco people to the west of the aztecs. They where in the midst of a technological revolution -- they had discovered bronze. This alone would have done the aztecs in.
Spaniards would have never considered a simple commercial relationship, remember, they where bent on conversion. Spain was the catholic stronghold of Europe and the Church needed more converts, the aztecs were easy picking.
Oh, and yes, the aztecs were in decline. Discontent was everywhere, remember the Tlaxcaltecans? they helped Cortes fight against the aztecs.
Ideologies weigh about 90% when discussing history. America was bound to be colonialized by european powers beacuse of the whole Renasaince ideals.
The Incas and the Aztecs were, indeed, to far away to conduct warfare, but not too far to cunduct commerce. Some evidence has recently emerged showing incan artifacts in Tarascan land. And some historians believed the chinese also had commerce with the aztecs.
But definetly, all native american cultures had their fate sealed, they would have been colonialized either by Spain, England, Holland or some other european power.
Ehecatl Atzin
Spaniards would have never considered a simple commercial relationship, remember, they where bent on conversion. Spain was the catholic stronghold of Europe and the Church needed more converts, the aztecs were easy picking.
Oh, and yes, the aztecs were in decline. Discontent was everywhere, remember the Tlaxcaltecans? they helped Cortes fight against the aztecs.
Ideologies weigh about 90% when discussing history. America was bound to be colonialized by european powers beacuse of the whole Renasaince ideals.
The Incas and the Aztecs were, indeed, to far away to conduct warfare, but not too far to cunduct commerce. Some evidence has recently emerged showing incan artifacts in Tarascan land. And some historians believed the chinese also had commerce with the aztecs.
But definetly, all native american cultures had their fate sealed, they would have been colonialized either by Spain, England, Holland or some other european power.
Ehecatl Atzin
