What if: "fixing" Argicultural trait

[player1 fanatic]

I know, that this probably won't happen, but I'll ask it regardless.

If Agricultural trait gets nerfed so it doesn't give extra food in despotism at all, will it be balanced?

Such change would prevent balance issues in early game, while leaving some good things for later, like half priced Aqueducts or bonus food on deserts and of course extra food in other governments.

I would still consder it as one of the better traits.

What do you think?


P.S.
With current settings I'm pretty much addicted to Agr.

 

[Longasc]

You still need rivers to get much more than the 1 extra in the city centre, right?

Yes, your idea has something, I could imagine that.

But player1fanatic, you brought up "no more patch after 1.22" thread, right?

Do you think this will ever happen or that they will really fix anything else and bring out any patch at all?

 

[player1 fanatic]

quoting myself:

I know, that this probably won't happen, but I'll ask it regardless.

As for rivers, that's true, but that could only be balancing factor in MP, when you can't restart bad position.

 

[kb2tvl]

Actaully, you need aquaducts or freshwater...

 

[Dogmeat]

Well, they are too lazy to make any major programming changes in an EXPANSION (go figure)!
How likely is it that they make such a change in a patch?! And weren't people like you the same kind of people who said they should let go of the personal vendettas such as the removal of radio and focus on bug fixes?

(And yes, it would make the game more balanced)

 

[MeatWad]

Mind if I put in my 2 cents? I think they should have never removed "Refrigeration", allowing irrigated land to become Farmland and produce bonus food. Plus I just liked the way the Farmed tiles looked.

 

[Dogmeat]

Off topic!
No seriously, I loved the concept of farmland in civ2.
Not only will it look cool but reimplementing that concept would solve 2 major problems with C3C. No mined plains and irrigations on AI soil (if you remove mines altogether that is!) and less railroads everywhere.

 

[Chieftess]

Well, they are too lazy to make any major programming changes in an EXPANSION (go figure)!
How likely is it that they make such a change in a patch?! And weren't people like you the same kind of people who said they should let go of the personal vendettas such as the removal of radio and focus on bug fixes?

(And yes, it would make the game more balanced)

Not really. They're busy with other projects (Civ4, Pirates).

 

[warpstorm]

Mind if I put in my 2 cents? I think they should have never removed "Refrigeration", allowing irrigated land to become Farmland and produce bonus food. Plus I just liked the way the Farmed tiles looked.

But RRs do that now with less micromanagent as you are going to railroad every tile anyways (if only for the movement bonus). There are graphic mods that can make the irrigation look like farmland (I use one).

 

[warpstorm]

Well, they are too lazy to make any major programming changes in an EXPANSION (go figure)!

I disagree, they (and Breakaway) made a lot of changes in the programming
in the expansion.

As for the patch, the problem isn't laziness but priorities. Unfortunately, the games industry has to be focused on its next title. That's the only one that's paying the bills. In most cases, the preivous title's money has been spent by the time it ships

 

[dexters]

As for the patch, the problem isn't laziness but priorities. Unfortunately, the games industry has to be focused on its next title. That's the only one that's paying the bills. In most cases, the preivous title's money has been spent by the time it ships

Jus to go OT a bit and to address the issue of patching and what Firaxis should be responsible for.

We pay something for the games. The post release support is priced into the product. We can argue all day about who pays what and what is paid to whom, but if they really wanted to be effective either

1) they deliver a product that requires little post release support (aka Sim City 4 Rush Hour only ever needed 1 patch to fix all the major bugs and I'm not aware of any other patches) and the Expansion actually sold for $10 less than C3C here in Canada and came with a rebate coupon to boot. These are businesses. You get a competitive advantage by doing things better than your competition. EA/Maxis obviously know their stuff and managed to not have to patch their equaly complex Sim City 4 and the subsequent expansion several times and still leave major bugs unfixed, or worse, introduce new ones. That is not the case with Firaxis and C3C in particular where post release support seemed to be filled with good intentions but was executed so badly, we are now left with a still broken product and major issues unaddressed.

2) patch the thing till its fixed. We paid for it in the price of the product. Firaxis and Atari aren't performing public service.

I'm not addressing this to the thread topic. I think playing with Agricultural civ's balance is beyond the realm of patching but a beta test issue, or just a mod issue now since beta test has long been over. But this does apply to the several major bugs they have left hanging. And going through Player1's thread on the possibility of no more patches after 1.22, a majority would agree with me these bugs aren't a minor nusience but major ones.

 

[MikeH]

What should happen and what does happen are two different things. I'd like a patch to fix the remaining issues too, but all software reaches a stage where companies stop supporting it (Microsoft no longer patch Win 95/98, for instance, even if it still has bugs). If you're lucky a bunch of dedicated fans will produce 'community' patches.

 

[player1 fanatic]

I would compare my "fix" to level of nerfing that got Industrial.
It would still be a good trait, but not uber powerful.


As for patch, I would be happy if just bug-fixes got addressed, if it ever get released.

 

[dexters]

What should happen and what does happen are two different things. I'd like a patch to fix the remaining issues too, but all software reaches a stage where companies stop supporting it (Microsoft no longer patch Win 95/98, for instance, even if it still has bugs). If you're lucky a bunch of dedicated fans will produce 'community' patches.

FYI C3C is Firaxis' latest product. No one is asking them to patch PTW. The analogy to Win 98 is a strawman IMHO.

But this is really OT, i was simply responding another post about this issue not trying to sidetrac Player1's thread. If you'd like to discuss more about this, check Player1's other thread about 1.22 being (potentially) the last patch for C3C.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=92090

 

[socralynnek]

I don't think it's possible in the editor now, but I think it would be a good idea to give the food bonus only in town, not in cities or metros. So, they get an early boost, but not such a big bonus later on.

 

[warpstorm]

Off topic - skip to the bottom to get back on topic

FYI C3C is Firaxis' latest product. No one is asking them to patch PTW. The analogy to Win 98 is a strawman IMHO.

Not really. While C3C is Firaxis' latest released product, they aren't really getting paid to work on it anymore. What they are getting paid to work on now is Pirates! and Civ4. They are a publisher-funded developer, they get paid up front (usually every few weeks till the game ships if they are making their milestones - miss a milestone miss that increment of pay) by the publisher to produce the game and (usually) one patch. Anything after that comes out of their profit (if any, they have to earn back as much money as the publisher gave them up front first before they see any more money).

Is this fair? No. It isn't (not to the customer, not to the small developer, not even to the publisher), but it is the way the entertainment software business works. You don't buy software. You license it under very specific terms. Read your EULA if want the exact terms. IIRC, it said that you had 90 days to return it to Atari if it didn't meet your needs. After that they are under no obligation to do anything about it. If it is buggy they are under no obligation to do anything about it. Fair? No, not remotely (unless you took them up of the refund). Want to sue them? Sorry, you contractually said that you wouldn't. I don't know about your locale, but in the USA this is legal.

Do I like that Firaxis has put fixing the few major bugs on the back burner? No. But I do understand the business realities that could lead them to that decision.

What would work better? A monthly service charge to continue playing and ensuring that they made timely and regular updates would do the trick. Add in regualr content upgrades and software enhancements and they'd have my monthly payment.

Back on topic:

I like that suggestion, playerFanatic, it would make agg still a strong trait, but not awesome must have.

 

[dexters]

Not really. While C3C is Firaxis' latest released product, they aren't really getting paid to work on it anymore.

They have been paid already. Please read Post #11. I outlined two possibilities for Firaxis. Make a solid product that requires few (1) post release patch or patch it till its fixed. We've paid for the post release support in the price. Please do read the post

Sure there are many games with worse patch histories (Atari's own Moo3 for one when Atari pulled the plug only after 1 patch). But there are many more games that have done much better. There's nothing wrong to holding Firaxis to a higher standard, unless you want me to consider it a second or third tier developer, then fine.

 

[MikeH]

If you'd like to discuss more about this, check Player1's other thread about 1.22 being (potentially) the last patch for C3C.

Nothing to discuss, I wasn't disagreeing with you, just being realistic .

 

[warpstorm]

Off topic, again. Yes, PF1, I liked your idea, it'd be great if it were implemented someday.

(off topic deleted)

 

[andrewlt]

Blizzard still supports Starcraft (last expansion released in 1999) and Diablo2 (last expansion released in 2001) with new patches. Bioware also supports games a long time after they got released. Tecmo will be offering a free small add-on for Ninja Gaiden next Monday. It's very possible to support a game long after it's released and still be very profitable. Bioware is frequently in Canada's fastest growing companies list.

I know the commercial and industrious bonus is base city square for cities population 7 and above. What makes agricultural powerful is that it's available right at the start for cities in rivers.