What if Rome never existed?

[Plexus]

753 BC, Palatine Hill

Two brothers engaged in a bloody duel after the founding of the town Roma, Romulus and Remus. The outcome was death for both. And the small town failed in its infancy, the people of the town scattered throughout Italy.

---

So, basically, how different to you think the world would be if Rome never existed? Would a new superpower have arisen in Italy, taking its place? Or would something entirely different been the outcome?

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Will see how this thread goes, before deciding on whether to lock it...

Personally I think the non-existence of Rome is too significant an event for any meaningful what-if discussions...

 

[Xen]

There was no bloody duel. Ever. Remus was being an ass, and jumped over the up and comeing wall of Rome that Romulus was building. And then Romulus in a blinding fit of rage (presumbabley for other reasons as well besides the wall thing) killed him.

 

[Xen]

As for Rome not existing...Its likelly that an Eturian city state would have dominated the mare interrum instead, Italy was just to good a spot not to be a natuaral capital arera, considering its ceteral position in the area,and fine lands for crops, and heards, and many a place for a nice settlement.

 

[Xen]

and I might not exist

 

[Capt. Mitchell]

A new superpower could have risen from Italy if Rome had not existed, but there are other possibilities later on in time like Greece, Carthage, Egypt, or the Celts possibly taking control of Europe and turning it into their own empire. Thats about all I think can be said since I agree with XIII in that the non-existence of Rome is much too significant for any real discussion.

 

[G-Man]

Rome was engaged in several wars early own. If Rome never existed, one of the cities it was fighting could've taken over instead. Rome not existing is a very big what-if, so I don't think you can tell what happened so many centuries later when it in the real world Rome became an empire.
BTW the dual story doesn't matter, Rome was forged from the villages of the area and was a natural continuation of these close settlments. Like anything in history, what-ifs affect not just what happened after but also what happened before. If all these villages were someplace else who knows what would've happened?

 

[Xen]

@G-Man) The duel is of semi religious significance to me- it needed correction

@Capt. Mitchell) The celts are VERY doubtful, thel only started to the very beginngs of any sort of unifacation only after Rome had forced them into that position when Caesar conqured the area

Greece was to shaken after years of unstable politcs to do anything, and the balence of power between the Alexandrian Successors in the east meant that none could afford a mass expitition into the west

Carthage was interested in easy pickings, and would not have expanded muck farther into Europe then the Ebro river, of coarse, African, and eventual South American expansion is up for debate

 

[CruddyLeper]

Eh? Carthage expanding no further than the Ebro?

I always thought Hannibal crossed the Alps. Makes you wonder how far he would have gone with no Rome to worry about.

In short, Carthage would have expanded, although would have run into the Roman problem even quicker ("Quick! We need a Forbidden Palace in Constantinople!").

Interesting to see who would have won the Carthage V Egypt war - maybe Egypt? Depends on where else Carthage got to I suppose.

 

[Kryten]

I largely agree with CruddyLeper....Carthage would have lasted much longer.

However, I must disagree slightly with Xen.....

Originally posted by Xen
Greece was to shaken after years of unstable politcs to do anything, and the balence of power between the Alexandrian Successors in the east meant that none could afford a mass expitition into the west

I think you are forgetting Pyrrhus, King of Epirus.

Here's how I think that things MAY have turned out:-
510BC = Rome fails to breakaway from the Etruscans (in reality they did).
400BC = The Gauls invade North Italy, weakening the Etruscans (as they did in reality).
350BC = The Samnite tribes and city states of central Italy become a major power (in reality they were crushed by Rome).
280BC = Pyrrhus of Epirus, with his veteran Macedonian pike phalanxes and elephants, invades Italy, seeking to found a new kingdom.
The Samnites and southern Greeks are no match for him, and are conquered.
With Italy secure, he then invades Sicily and also conqueres it, crippling the Carthaginians, who are no match for the Macedonians.
(This he did in reality in 275BC, but had to return to Italy to finish off the Romans, and lost.
Please note that the Carthaginians learnt about elephants from Pyrrhus)
250BC = Carthage has no choice but to expand westward into Spain, while the new Pyrrhic Kingdom expands north to the Alps.
There are now two major powers in the western Mediterranean....with the many Celtic tribes of Gaul to the north.

From here on I have no idea what would happen.
Would a future Hannibal invade Macedonian Italy?
Would a futrue Pyrrhus the II or III crush Carthage?
Or would the future migrating Germanic Cimbri & Teutones invade and settle in Spain and Italy in 113BC?
Who knows!

 

[Xen]

A) Hannibal did cross the alps, but dont confuse a flank march of epic proportions with expansion.

B) Carthaginian forces were ill equped to go after Greek forces- why- because most of there cre mercenary officers were Greeks, by the punic wars the only part of the army in which native Carthaginians were present in any substantial numbers was the cavalry.

Several hundred years of warfare over Sicialy had also shown that the greek could very often edge out Carthaginian force. This enterd upsets of course though includding periods when the island was almost compleatlly controlled by Carthage or Syracuse.

Take a look at Carthaginian expansion, it proceeded at a snails pace for annexation of territory, and very often no colonies were founded to act as native carthaginian administrative centers, and there was often no benifit for giving your loyalty to carthage over ones homeland

 

[Xen]

I dunno Kryten, I'm still hesitant to no take away faith from the Etruscans.And considering that Epirus (I dont belive) was directlly controlled by Alexander, it cant be a sucessor

 

[Kryten]

Well, to quote from the "Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars" by Duncan Head....

"Eturia was a league of 12 cities, and was mainly a religious association, with its federal centre at the temple of Voltumna in the city of Volsinii. Politically the various cities mostly pursued their own courses, but occasionally managed to unite under the auspices of the league."

In short, they were just like Greece; a bunch of independant bickering city states, and not a united nation under a single ruler.

From the same source:-
"Notably absent is any reference to their skill or courage. The Romans had a low opinion of these qualities, and were very suprised when an Etruscan army gave them a hard fight in 310BC; "It seemed as though the Romans were contending, not with the so often defeated Etruscans, But with some new race. There was no sign of flight in any quarter"."

Also, the Celts invaded and settled in the Po valley of northern Italy in about 400BC.
Who owned the Po valley? The Etruscans!
With the loss of much of their territory, Etruscia was in decline.

As for Epirus....
....Alexander owned ALL of the east, but that didn't stop the Bithynians, Galatia, Cappadocia, Pontus, Armenia (all in Asia Minor), plus Thrace and Greece, from becoming independant states following his death in 323BC.

Here is a quote from the Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2002....

"Pyrrhus (c. 318-272 BC), king of Epirus (307-302 BC, and 297-272BC), a district in ancient Greece. He succeeded to the throne as a minor in 307BC, later lost it, but was restored as king in 297BC. He increased his territories with the addition of the western parts of the neighbouring kingdoms of Macedonia and Thessaly. He also helped to overthrow the Macedonian king Demetrius I Poliorcetes. Pyrrhus was driven out of his new territories, however, about 286BC by his former ally Lysimachus, king of Thrace, who became king of all Macedonia.
In 281Bc the people of Tarentum (now Taranto), a Greek colony in southern Italy then at war with the Romans, requested the aid of Pyrrhus."

He lost these new territories, but managed to hold on to Epirus.
He couldn't expand in Greece, the opposition was too strong.
So he looked westward to expand his kingdom, to Italy.
And he almost succeded....if it weren't for the Romans.

 

[Xen]

Still Veii,and etruscan city (and, the other major root of my Italian heritage ) was a liklly candy-date to take Roman like position should it(Rome) have failed to materialize, as the two city sites were VERY close together-In Civ3 terms they would heve been on the same tile...

 

[Kryten]

Ah, but there is nothing magical about a piece of dirt surrounded by seven hills near a river.

It was not Rome's location, or the fact that Veii was near that location, that made the future of this place so great.
What DID sow the seeds of Rome's destiny was it's political institutions.

Did the people of Veii overthrow their kings and tyrants, introduce an elective form of government, and guarantee the rights of their citizens overseen by their peers, which gave even the common people a fierce sense of civic pride and superiority?
No.
Veii was just another petty city-state ruled by selfish aristocrats and tyrants.

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by Xen
A) Hannibal did cross the alps, but dont confuse a flank march of epic proportions with expansion.

B) Carthaginian forces were ill equped to go after Greek forces- why- because most of there cre mercenary officers were Greeks, by the punic wars the only part of the army in which native Carthaginians were present in any substantial numbers was the cavalry.

Several hundred years of warfare over Sicialy had also shown that the greek could very often edge out Carthaginian force. This enterd upsets of course though includding periods when the island was almost compleatlly controlled by Carthage or Syracuse.

Take a look at Carthaginian expansion, it proceeded at a snails pace for annexation of territory, and very often no colonies were founded to act as native carthaginian administrative centers, and there was often no benifit for giving your loyalty to carthage over ones homeland

Why does the head say G-Man? What do I have to do with this?

 

[Xen]

Originally posted by G-Man


Why does the head say G-Man? What do I have to do with this?

Whoops! Sorry G... wrong person....

 

[Xen]

Originally posted by Kryten
Ah, but there is nothing magical about a piece of dirt surrounded by seven hills near a river.

It was not Rome's location, or the fact that Veii was near that location, that made the future of this place so great.
What DID sow the seeds of Rome's destiny was it's political institutions.

Did the people of Veii overthrow their kings and tyrants, introduce an elective form of government, and guarantee the rights of their citizens overseen by their peers, which gave even the common people a fierce sense of civic pride and superiority?
No.
Veii was just another petty city-state ruled by selfish aristocrats and tyrants.

But you cant deny, the area was a naturale administrative center for italy, right smack dap in the middle, and Veii (i think) was a republic as well, they just lost a war (or three)

 

[Furius]

From memory, Rome couldn't become a superpower untill it tore away those political institutions. Carthage also had similar political institutions.
Thing is, I think we would have ended up with a very different world, today. After all without Rome you can't have one of the most important things ever to occur in Europe, its fall.
There would might be no united England (maybe under Picts), no nations in Northern Europe, no expulsion of Jews from Jerusalem, no Europewide christian state, and when the Huns sailed in, no empire to take.

 

[Higher Game]

Greece would go head to head with Carthage to test who was stronger. They would control the Mediterranean Sea. The Celts, mightiest of all races, would control the rest of Europe. :saiyan: