What is Marco Polos value
- Thread starter mardukes
- Start date
A+ombomb
Actuary
It is primarily used to gift until civs trade maps with you, then you know exactly where you can trade for demanded products and you know where you can safely expand.
More than gifting, it allows you to trade techs and to see what techs the other civs have (as well as what they are researching). No matter what sort of game you are playing -- spaceship, early landing, bloodlust, early conquest -- this information is going to dramatically improve your strategy. I consider Marco's an almost essential early wonder. (The qualification being that if you encounter a number of neighbors early on, you may be able to forego it, using the shields to build dips instead, and establish embassies the old-fashioned way.)
Archer 007
Rebirth
I dont consider it to be that important. Maybe on a large map with few civs its alot more important.
I'd second it's importance, particularly for getting a "foot in the door" diplomatically before the civs start meeting each other and starting wars. When you know what techs they have and what they are working on you can make them "tech slaves" by gifting them what they are working on so they will research something you do not have, then trade with them.
All this presumes you are using the Classic/2.42 version of Civ2. MGE, FW and TOT seem to have much more volatile AI diplomacy, with little chance of long-term friendly relationships or alliances. Using Marco Polo requires getting their attitude up to at least Cordial (Enthus/Worsh if you just have contact or embassy) to do map exchanges or alliances. With MGE their attitude will immediately drop down to Icy or worse, even after gifting them to Worshipful.
All this presumes you are using the Classic/2.42 version of Civ2. MGE, FW and TOT seem to have much more volatile AI diplomacy, with little chance of long-term friendly relationships or alliances. Using Marco Polo requires getting their attitude up to at least Cordial (Enthus/Worsh if you just have contact or embassy) to do map exchanges or alliances. With MGE their attitude will immediately drop down to Icy or worse, even after gifting them to Worshipful.
la fayette
King
Marco is SO useful that I build it first in almost all my games (even playing MGE).
Information rules the world (ask Bill Gates
).
Information rules the world (ask Bill Gates
).marco polo is the first wonder i build every game against computer. and first i try for against another human. not only can you trade techs and maps but it lets you know how many cities everyone has,what form of goverment they have, if they are building a wonder and what city they are building it in. this lets you march troops right to that city and take it as wonder built. if they are building wonder in city they are not building troops in same city.also when you check demographs it tells you who leads in every category.against computer after marco i build magellans then leo. after that only one more wonder the statue of liberty. this lets me switch to communisim.this eliminates need for happy wonders, stops corruption.and lets me demand tribute and fight or break treatys as i wish.but i only play for fast conquest so would not help any other style of play or occ
Marco Polo is one of the longer lasting early Wonders, expiring with Communism in the Industrial Age. Communism also offers the UN to replace it, but it costs three times as much to build. By that time you should have used your early contact to get Diplomats to open embassies in the civs you need to stay in touch with.
Seeking to get Trade right after Monarchy is a popular tech strategy. Not only does it give you caravans for trade bonuses and routes, but you can put them into building Wonders without losing half the shields. This is a technique the human player can exploit against the AI, because the AI does not build Wonders very efficiently (although they get a break on the number of shields necessary as the difficulty level gets above King).
Seeking to get Trade right after Monarchy is a popular tech strategy. Not only does it give you caravans for trade bonuses and routes, but you can put them into building Wonders without losing half the shields. This is a technique the human player can exploit against the AI, because the AI does not build Wonders very efficiently (although they get a break on the number of shields necessary as the difficulty level gets above King).
Old n Slow
Emperor
1) I think that i've been able to obain 12-14 techs via trade due to Marco's.
2) The maps also add to the above considerable value.
3) And in a number of cases, I've achieved alliances (with associated $$ benefits.)
In my mind it is easily worth the 200 shields/four camels; the active questions are urgency vs. opportunity cost. Since the other 200 shield wonders are in competition at the same time, I'll often build one or two of those first & get Marco's next.
2) The maps also add to the above considerable value.
3) And in a number of cases, I've achieved alliances (with associated $$ benefits.)
In my mind it is easily worth the 200 shields/four camels; the active questions are urgency vs. opportunity cost. Since the other 200 shield wonders are in competition at the same time, I'll often build one or two of those first & get Marco's next.
I fully agree with Old n Slow, and in addition to the associated benefits of 3), having alliances and being at war with the same enemy also gave me a few cities (I admit I was lucky my ally killed all the defenders and had no movement point left to prevent me from capturing the cities before he did!)
Nylan
Characters Welcome
I agree with Old n Slow as well, although I think that Leonardo's Workshop is more important.
Lazarus Plus
Super Deadman Walking
Between the two, Leonardo's is definitely more important.
#1 Person
The Cow
Leonardo is the MOST important wonder! I have a list of wonders i like to get.
Pyramids or collusses
Marco
Leonardo's
Apollo
Great wall
and a few others
i am suprised that in Civ III there is no Marco Polo
Pyramids or collusses
Marco
Leonardo's
Apollo
Great wall
and a few others
i am suprised that in Civ III there is no Marco Polo
I second ElephantU. I almost never build Leonardo's. While it is nice to get the free upgrades, in the small civs w/ few units that I prefer to run, it is a lot of shields for relatively little benefit, and at a time when I am rushing to get a number of other wonders that I value much more (Magellans', Adam Smith's, Isaac Newton's, et al.). On the other hand, I almost ALWAYS build Marco Polo as my second-ever wonder (right after the Colossus for my SSC).
Leonardo's certainly has more value for larger civs (and large-army civs) than it has for small civs. Marco Polo, however, is very useful for ANY size civ and for a wide range of play. It is also available very early and stays active for a long time.
Leonardo's certainly has more value for larger civs (and large-army civs) than it has for small civs. Marco Polo, however, is very useful for ANY size civ and for a wide range of play. It is also available very early and stays active for a long time.
la fayette
King
Bright side of Leonardo:
If you build it before discovering Explosives and have 20-30 settlers at work
If you build it before discovering Gunpowder and have 20-30 warriors hanging around
Dark side of Leonardo:
You have 10-20 vet ironclads offshore enemy coastal cities
If you build it before discovering Explosives and have 20-30 settlers at work
If you build it before discovering Gunpowder and have 20-30 warriors hanging around
Dark side of Leonardo:
You have 10-20 vet ironclads offshore enemy coastal cities
TimTheEnchanter
I...am...an Enchanter!
Other Bright side...Originally posted by la fayette
Bright side of Leonardo:
If you build it before discovering Explosives and have 20-30 settlers at work
If you build it before discovering Gunpowder and have 20-30 warriors hanging around
Dark side of Leonardo:
You have 10-20 vet ironclads offshore enemy coastal cities
Playing OCC and you have bribed 3-4 None settlers
Also:
You build it when you have several horsemen, chariots, etc. around...
Dark side..
...You build it, and then neglect to research leadership, tactics before it expires.
Originally posted by Old n Slow
1) I think that i've been able to obain 12-14 techs via trade due to Marco's.
2) The maps also add to the above considerable value.
3) And in a number of cases, I've achieved alliances (with associated $$ benefits.)
In my mind it is easily worth the 200 shields/four camels; the active questions are urgency vs. opportunity cost. Since the other 200 shield wonders are in competition at the same time, I'll often build one or two of those first & get Marco's next.
1) I've read that but, how exactly can you predict what the AI researches next after a gift?
2) What, exactly, does it do to make maps available?
3) How often do you hit up your allies for money? For surely they don't volunteer.
RE: Leo's--am I goofy for planning to get all my triremes upgraded to transports?
RE: 10-20's--who builds this many pieces of anything other than guard dogs?
RE: Marcos> [what ever the ancient happiness wonder is?]--how do you otherwise cheer up your mob ESPECIALLY if you're not building temples?
Old n Slow
Emperor
Is Marco's better than Leo's? Interesting question -- best answer is it depends.
In GOTM 37 (almost complete) I had 9 major cities in play (with a couple of minor ones) and really didn't go adventuring until Leo's expired -- thus it achieved little use. No big deal, as I was doing fine with a tech per turn circa tactics & just decided to continue with more modern units (also allowed the ai to build more wonders than I ususally do -- so I had to go out & "collect" them.)
With an Early landing sort of game or an early conquest sort of game -- Marco's retains its value, but Leo's is less important because the palyer is running a trimmer civ and has fewer units to consider upgrading. On the other hand, as Tim pointed out, one may have a bunch of food camels laying around, and building a wonder (any wonder for that point) can free up some badly desired trade -- so Leo's might make sense, especially with some None units in the resource pool.
With an extensive empire requiring a large force of units -- Leo's shines. With an inexperienced player, Leo's is a must.
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What will the ai research next? I don't work that hard, but there is a list of ai preferences (gunpowder is very high for example) based upon thier warlike leanings.
In the diplomat exchange discussion, an option exists to trade maps (about a choice or two below exchange techs.) -- both civs must have the knowledge of Map making, and the maps will be exchanged if the ai is worshipful (almost always one step down and sometimes if two steps down.)
I usually beg once every few turns -- when one is truely pitiful (having a single size one city for instance) feel free to beg every turn.
10s-20s? When I have 50-80 cities, I'll have half that many engineers (and feel like I have too few) and about that many trucks laying around (I often have some extra trucks -- I haven't quite got the knack for Just in Time production/delivery -- so I'll pre build extra trucks as long as the commodities roll, and deliver enough to get a tech per turn.)
Hanging Gardens is a Plus; Mike's is too good to let get away. J S Bach -- similar reasoning -- Should have both by the time you want your towns to buils sewers & become metro gigantic.
In GOTM 37 (almost complete) I had 9 major cities in play (with a couple of minor ones) and really didn't go adventuring until Leo's expired -- thus it achieved little use. No big deal, as I was doing fine with a tech per turn circa tactics & just decided to continue with more modern units (also allowed the ai to build more wonders than I ususally do -- so I had to go out & "collect" them.)
With an Early landing sort of game or an early conquest sort of game -- Marco's retains its value, but Leo's is less important because the palyer is running a trimmer civ and has fewer units to consider upgrading. On the other hand, as Tim pointed out, one may have a bunch of food camels laying around, and building a wonder (any wonder for that point) can free up some badly desired trade -- so Leo's might make sense, especially with some None units in the resource pool.
With an extensive empire requiring a large force of units -- Leo's shines. With an inexperienced player, Leo's is a must.
------------------------------------
What will the ai research next? I don't work that hard, but there is a list of ai preferences (gunpowder is very high for example) based upon thier warlike leanings.
In the diplomat exchange discussion, an option exists to trade maps (about a choice or two below exchange techs.) -- both civs must have the knowledge of Map making, and the maps will be exchanged if the ai is worshipful (almost always one step down and sometimes if two steps down.)
I usually beg once every few turns -- when one is truely pitiful (having a single size one city for instance) feel free to beg every turn.
10s-20s? When I have 50-80 cities, I'll have half that many engineers (and feel like I have too few) and about that many trucks laying around (I often have some extra trucks -- I haven't quite got the knack for Just in Time production/delivery -- so I'll pre build extra trucks as long as the commodities roll, and deliver enough to get a tech per turn.)
Hanging Gardens is a Plus; Mike's is too good to let get away. J S Bach -- similar reasoning -- Should have both by the time you want your towns to buils sewers & become metro gigantic.
