What Is Needed for Defense?

[joncnunn]

Should I try Liberty instead so I can expand faster?

How many cities are you intending on building?

Six+ implies Liberty. (See the wide guides for more info on that.)

Four or less implies tradition in G&K

Five is neither pure tall nor pure wide; if you consider yourself as growing tall but with a 5th city, that's Tradition. (Going this route, buying an Aqueduct in that 5th city will be a priority when you reach the tech; you'll have the free ones in the first four from Tradition before reaching the tech.)
If you instead consider yourself keeping all non capital cities small even with only five cities that's Liberty.

 

[The Pilgrim]

@docbud
I suspect you weren't outnumbered, but outmaneuvered. Tactical combat is pretty complex in Civ5, that's why AI is notoriously bad at it and human players have huge advantage. However, if you don't use your units effectively, you give up on this advantage. Your science per turn is decent and on prince level that should be enough to defeat any AI opposition. Fall patch increased the number of units AI spams and even made it better at combat, but it's still very very stupid and easy to deal with if you're prepared.

Do you by chance have a save file?

As for exploring, expanding etc - no circumstances can prevent you from doing that if you really want to. Not on this level, not even on deity in most cases. Besides, two games in a row - it's a pattern, not circumstances. These things are game breaking. Extremely, extremely important.

You can't get wrong with Tradition, so stick to it.
Start with scout - monument - worker - shrine - granary - archer - settler - library - archers and at least one more worker until you finish Philosophy then NC. In second city build shrine and granary first. Research techs that are needed to improve luxuries, then Archery, then Writing and Philosophy (for Babylon obviously Writing first, then luxes techs, Archery, Philosophy). Improve luxuries asap and sell them for your neighbors (that's what exploration is for). When you have 400 rush buy a library in second city and start working on NC in the capital. After you finish NC, expand to 4 cities. Try to sell more luxuries and strategic resources to buy a settler (500 ) and hard build another one. If AI doesn't have any money left, build two settlers in capital. Also try to steal a worker from CS. This is solid start that sets you for the rest of the game. I would suggest something more balanced than sandstorm, though. Maybe one of the default pangaea/continents maps? They have a better distribution of resources and maybe even spawning points.

A city that can only grow to size 2 is a terrible city spot.
By the time Education is around, even the newest city should be size 7+. Oxford is in fact worth while (assuming NOT an OCC) to delay for quite some time so I'd expect that newest city to be size 9+ before it got around to starting to build the University. (In addition if one of your cities is really cash poor; can be bought with cash there)

I think you're missing the point. No need to convince me.

 

[Greasy Dave]

Read this thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=468487&highlight=cities+tradition+opening

Tabarnaks thread is a good guide how to go about getting a solid start. s other posters here have pointed out, your defense isn't the problem. Its a symptom of the problem. And the problemis that you're not making full use of everything the game lets you do.

The therad isn't a guide on how to play the game, but its a good strategy guide for getting a solid start. Definitely a better one thatn you're making right now.

HOpe it helps.

 

[docbud]

Thanks The Pilgrim. I'll have to look tonight to see if I kept a saved file. I had quit the game and decided to start a new game with someone other than Babylon. And thanks for the strategy to try. And you're right--I should try something other than sandstorm. I'll try a new game tonight.

Thanks for the link, Greasy Dave.

 

[Sequiture]

Well, I go crazy expanding... I completed liberty now I'm almost done with Commerence. I'm really bad at managing culture, because I think "my bpt, gpt, army, etc is so strong I don't need culture". Do I undervalue it? I'm playing on Prince (level 4) and its working for me. Should I work on that more?

When to raze/puppet? I never annex, and usually raze because AI builds a lot of cities. I'm top in everything except Land and Soldiers, but 3 or 4th in both. Capitals=annex? Also, is it worth being friends with CSs for a really long time or should I conquer them?

Wonders=don't build so many, got it. (NC and very little exceptions).

Settling new cities? Where if there aren't any good spots?

My second city has higher production than my capital, but low food. I'm friends with 2CSs that give food (so +2 food) and I set the production focus to food, but it grows super slowly. I built farms where I could, but I can't buy more tiles for farms because there aren't any.

Spare money? I'm getting 85-87gpt, and I have money I dont know what to do with. Do I keep some saved in case I need to buy a combat unit? Or do I always buy buildings?

I didn't mean to get off topic, but this can help the OP also.

 

[marekb]

I’ve read in threads that if you see a scout coming from an area then it means it’s been explored and you should explore other areas.

I could agree with that playing Spain and looking for new natural wonders, but you need to have a area to explore. It happens many time I found first CS or ruins a few tiles from AI capital.

One of the most important thing in first turns is to explore surroundings of your capital and choose good spots for new cities (unless you decided to play with one city (OCC marked or not). Playing OCC right (on Prince) you should lunch between t300 and t400 probably around t350. For faster OCC scientific victories higher difficulties levels are needed.

 

[Bandobras Took]

Playing OCC right (on Prince) you should lunch between t300 and t400 probably around t350.

And what about dinner?

 

[Browd]

My second city has higher production than my capital, but low food. I'm friends with 2CSs that give food (so +2 food) and I set the production focus to food, but it grows super slowly. I built farms where I could, but I can't buy more tiles for farms because there aren't any.

Maritime CS friends only provide food (2 food) to your capital. Your second city gets nada unless the CS is an ally, and only then gets 1 food (capital gets 1 more food as well, for total 3 food). If you want maritimes to help your second city, you need a bunch of maritime allies. Granary and water mill are easier.

 

[Sequiture]

I meant Allies. They are allies. Still, grows very slowly. I've built almost all or all of the +food buildings. It still pumps out units and buildings really fast, haha

 

[Novalia]

I would recommend ditching this sandstorm map type in favor for something more standard. You're effectively handicapping yourself.
You really need to explore more no matter what's in front of you. Walk around barbs. Fortify/heal. Choose the defense upgrade when you can or fully heal and move. Nothing should stop you from seeing the map... At least most of it. Make two scouts to start with. Or go scout, monument, and buy another scout for 140 after you've met some CS's.
another thing you ought to do early on is sell your embassy for 25 gold when you meet a civ. even if you have the option to straight up trade embassies early on you should still sell it as the early gold is more valuable. Later on a CS might even give you a quest to find a civ... Then you buy the embassy and get a CS ally.

 

[Xger]

It looks like things got more difficult since the “fall” patch (which just came out for the Mac on the App Store last week).

Barb behavoir was also changed, so barbs go farther, pillage more, move faster after spawn, so that should be kept in mind.

Like I said many times before, GL should be banned for anyone who can't consistently beat emperor. With this start it took 37-47 turns.
I really really really wish GL would be changed in BNW. A man can dream...

I didn't play Civ4 enough to know, but the same issue hamstrung a lot of players in Civ3, GL became a giant crutch.

Cold turkey!

Not for the rest of your life, of course, but to learn how to play without relying on wonders.

Actually, Oxford is OK (thematically consistent with NC-only). If you play culture, you can have Hermitage. But no World Wonders! That's the point. Foresake your favorite crutches for a few games to learn how to play better.

A cultural victory without wonders sounds really really painful.

China rushed cities like crazy in this game.

And--is it possible I'm just a chicken and should have just gone crazy on her to begin with. I am more of a defensive player and try peaceful games.

But in this game, I am extremely ticked off at China!

Looking at the screens you posted, you did no further exploring over 150 turns. One benefit not mentioned about meeting other civs and exploring is that you can pay civs to go to war. Bribe an AI to help fight China and some of the Chinese forces will be going elsewhere. Which leads to the fact that Kathmandu is right next to you and close to China. You have 2k+ gold but don't have them allied. Some Chinese troops would be diverted.

And, this I don’t understand. Before I quit, I checked the stats, and I had gone ahead in technology/literacy and troops. But I was outnumbered ten to one?

The demographic "Soldiers" number is just a math formula. If I have a Giant Death Robot, and you have 1000 warriors, I'll probably still be ahead even if outnumbered 1000 to 1.

 

[Sequiture]

Well, I try not to build wonders, but... In my insanely high production city (with focus set to food) I build buildings faster than I get access to them. So I build a few... Well, no, I built a lot(not many, I have so many cities that wonders would take forever if it wasn't stuff I needed). I don't build anymore cities unless I need the resources, like oil. Should I continue with that? I think I will go for a Science victory, I'm way ahead of everyone, and I'm playing on Prince. This feels too easy, I've only been DOW'd once, and I'm almost done wiping that attacking civ off the map. I had a very nice start in North America.

Also, is there any shame in starting games over and over until I get a start in North America? If I get a science victory, can I keep playing against the AI or does the AI give up? (e.g. A domination victory?). How big is the jump from Prince to King?

 

[The Pilgrim]

I didn't play Civ4 enough to know, but the same issue hamstrung a lot of players in Civ3, GL became a giant crutch.

It was the Oracle in Civ 4. I honestly think wonders shouldn't give free stuff at the beginning of the game before you have established and built a decent base for the future. People get blinded by a chance to get freebies.

A cultural victory without wonders sounds really really painful.

Unfortunately, cultural victory is not the right place to learn the basics to begin with. On the contrary, it's a perfect place to get trapped by bad habits, since it encourages sub optimal paths including wonder spamming. And it's very popular among those players who prefer role playing and building aspects over strategy aspect. But when they finally are ready to try something different, they find out most of the things they've learned so far don't work anymore.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Also, is there any shame in starting games over and over until I get a start in North America? If I get a science victory, can I keep playing against the AI or does the AI give up? (e.g. A domination victory?). How big is the jump from Prince to King?

Shame? Absolutely no. Learning value? Also no. If you really want to learn and improve, you should start playing different map types and different civs. That's the best way to minimize the gap between difficulty levels.

 

[docbud]

Lots of great advice and insight. I thank you all.

I admit my scouting was not that great in those games (I usually explore better). But those areas were where the enemy was, and where their archers or warrior were milling about.

I try not to build so many wonders, but usually I only stick to three cities or so. And usually my production is very high and I almost get maxed out on military. So I then build buildings for happiness or banks and stuff, but eventually there's a ton of wonders still waiting to be built, and if it's only 10 turns or so, I say why not!

Normally the world wonders I go for are GL, ToA, Notre Dame, and Oxford. Sometimes the Great Wall, depending upon terrain and how close my AI neighbors are.

In fact, I'm now playing a game as the Incas, and naturally Russia spawned near me, as well as Monty. I have a mountain chain separating me from Monty, so I'm not too concerned about him. But Russia is surrounding me.

So I built the Great Wall and she is having no success again my military.

I will be making a counter offensive

@The Pilgrim: I tried your strategy for a few games. Works pretty well. Thanks

 

[Maxym]

Shame? Absolutely no. Learning value? Also no. If you really want to learn and improve, you should start playing different map types and different civs. That's the best way to minimize the gap between difficulty levels.

I second that, the jump from prince to king is minimal I think. Just roll another of you N American starts on king, you should know them by heart. If you do ok, get different civs in different start locations. Africa is sweet too, and you can leverage Asian start into a quick win via domination. I think I finished by industrial age, but that was on immortal and with Babylon so not particularly challenging setup.

 

[Sequiture]

Haha. I am doing super well in my current Prince game. Techs take a few turns to research and I have really good gpt. N America is really nice. I will win the science victory soon, but I started to build a Navy, because I want to use Bombers, Cruisers, carriers, and other contemporary units. I'm playing on Huge Earth with 12 Civs and when I hit "Next Turn" there is so much lag. It kind of stops for a few minutes, my computer isn't made for gaming. All the graphic settings are on the lowest setting or completely off. If I play one setting below 12 civs and Huge, will it lag less? I don't feel like finishing the game, because of how long turns are, but I'm not sure of what settings I should play with? My computer is a mid 2009 MacBook Pro.

 

[Maxym]

Yes playing on a large map will help things out. So will a fast domination win don't give them time to build all these units.

 

[alpha00alpha]

You can always outwit a massive attack army by strictly going for melee units only, if they have no melee, they can't capture your city. By then they either retreat or continue to attack your invincible city which essentially defeats a unit every turn.

 

[The Pilgrim]

I try not to build so many wonders, but usually I only stick to three cities or so. And usually my production is very high and I almost get maxed out on military. So I then build buildings for happiness or banks and stuff, but eventually there's a ton of wonders still waiting to be built, and if it's only 10 turns or so, I say why not!

Because they come at the expense of other things. It maybe sounds right on paper, but if you get rushed while following this pattern, that implies something doesn't work. We only try to point out what it that exactly. Btw, I'm speaking from experience. I had a mixed success on monarch in Civ4 and got rushed occasionally, due to my very conservative and defensive play and unhealthy obsession with the Pyramids and CS slingshot in every single game. I was doing great when I got them, but missing out on them and I was completely lost.

@The Pilgrim: I tried your strategy for a few games. Works pretty well. Thanks

Glad to help. Although I can't claim the ownership of this strategy, it's a commonly used and rather generic start.

I second that, the jump from prince to king is minimal I think. Just roll another of you N American starts on king, you should know them by heart. If you do ok, get different civs in different start locations. Africa is sweet too, and you can leverage Asian start into a quick win via domination. I think I finished by industrial age, but that was on immortal and with Babylon so not particularly challenging setup.

I'd also recommend switching from Earth to something less spoiling. 2 unique luxes per CS and dozens per player is not very representative.