What is (not) allowed?

[Matrix]

Here is a list of all the known bugs and exploits. Some are allowed for the Game of the Month, some are not.
Green is allowed.
Red is disallowed.
Black is in discussion.

Any bugs or exploits not in this list should be mentioned. Also, feel free to discuss the current list. The list should be final when the GOTM V commences.

Please note that these rules are applicible for version 1.17f!

Right of Passage abuse
Make an agreement of Right of Passage, move your units to their main cities and attack them all at once.
Free palace jump
When disbanding your capitol your palace will appear in the biggest other city. Your former capitol can be rebuilt by the settler it created. This way you've moved you capitol free.
Island block
If you fill the coast of a certain island with units, even non-military, the AI won't be able to land, thus isn't able to conquer that island, until it has marines.
Upgrade army
Stack an army along with other similar units, then upgrade the stacked units. The units get separated from the army and you can then "load" new upgraded units into the army.
Pop-rushing
In despotism and communism it is possible to use cities purely for unit rush building. Workers can be added to such a city and then the city can then use them to rush build units. This is disallowed, so do not create these kind of cities. Pop rushing one or two regular citizens to finish a building or to build a unit is within the rules and the spirit of the game. What is against the rules is joining workers to cities for the purpose of pop rushing.
multi.SAV
When you rename the savegame (or even save the game) including the fragment "multi" in your .SAV file, you'll be able to see the whole map and change stuff, like the production in an AI city.

 

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Aeson
Size 6 to 7 Cities
Giving Away Barbarian Problems
Defensive Unit Trading
Culture Swapping
Palace Jumping
Scout Resource Denial
Disbanding Unhappiness
No Palace, No Corruption

"Giving away barbarian problems" is not even an exploit if you ask me. Unless you strickly disagree, I won't mention it.
I don't understand how "Culture Swapping" can be used in advantage to you.
Finally, "Palace jumping" and "No palace, no corruption" don't match. Which one is incorrect?

 

[Aeson]

You addressed the free palace jump and no corruption no palace, and got them in the right order already

The culture swapping in a city occurs when you give a city away. The citizens in that city become the nationality of the receiver. If you have just captured a large city from a Civ with a good culture rating, you can give that city to one of the other AI who's culture rating isn't as good. The citizens will all switch to the low culture nationality, making it less likely to revert if you take it back. Of course you then have to declare war on that Civ to take back the city as well, so it isn't helpful in all circumstances.

Another variation on this is to put all your troops in a city and give it to the AI. Your units will be teleported back to your capitol. Sometimes very helpful in repositioning your forces.

These loopholes, and the barbarian one, aren't really game breaking problems. It's good to know specifically what is allowed and what isn't though.

 

[ERIKK]

What do you mean by giving away babarian problems?

ERIKK

 

[Matrix]

Giving away barbarian problems: when a city of yours is doomed because of upcoming barbarians, just ditch the city to an opponent. At least you get some money from it.

Aeson, I still don't understand how both "Free/No palace" can exist. If a palace appears when a city reaches a size of 3, then you can never take real advantage of the "No palace" bug since you can only have cities of size 1 & 2.

Furthermore: anything not mentioned is allowed. If we state these pure tactics you described, the list might become really long...

 

[Aeson]

The Free Palace move happens when you disband your Capitol and currently have other cities. The Palace will be instantly built in another of your cities. Everything else is normal, just the Capitol is moved without having to spend time building the Palace. The No Corruption bug happens when you have no other cities, and capture an AI city. The Palace is never built, and so no corruption.

Edit: Ok, I see what you are saying now. If you capture an AI city while you currently have no cities, the Palace will never be built. You can build new cities, and let your cities get as large as you want, and unless you intentionally build the Palace, there will never be any corruption.

When you intentionally disband your capitol on the other hand, and have other active cities, the Palace will always be built. I just mentioned the size 3+ as that is how you can determine which city will get the free Palace build. It may move to a size 1 or 2 city if there are no larger ones.

 

[Matrix]

Is this more accurate, Aeson?

Now, if there are no other known exploits and bugs worth mentioning I'd like to discuss the validation of it. Right of Passage is more like a tactic. It is also devastating for your reputation (isn't it?), so that's free. Pop-rushing, Worker factories and Drafting at size 7 are on a smooth scale and I find them therefore difficult to forbid. That is because you can't deny people to rush-build units when in despotism and you can't deny people to draft in a city of a size of 7.

The thing that can give a big advantage is the scout thing (I made it black). If you're able to do this you might bring your opponent in great disadvantage. But many people might not succeed in it, e.g. because they invent Iron Working later, or because they don't have a scout in the neighbourhood. This, plus the fact that it easily cannot be used, plus that this is to my opinion not an exploit but merely a bug/flaw, let's me think this should be disallowed. Other thoughts? (More than just Aeson. )

 

[BillChin]

Matrix,

When you get a final list, you might add a spiel about why it is important that players follow the agreed upon rules. How it is all Honor Code, and cheaters are really only cheating themselves.

From the reloading poll there seem to be some players ignoring even that easy to follow rule. There are even those who ridicule those that are playing by the rules (75% liar weighting and such). For these people, I have an idea. If there is enough demand you might consider a separate category of entry: "Honest Cheaters" and halve their score. Put it on the info sheet for submission. So a player who is so used to reloading that they can not play the game any other way can submit a game, but is honest enough to admit they did reload gets their score cut in half. Just an idea that I am floating, because there does seem to be about 20% that can not play the game without their crutch.

What may also be useful is a thread about how to get a good score so that people that want to do better have a more useful alternative than cheating. Cheaters without any alternatives will cheat. There is no penalty, no authority, no nothing to stop them. No amount of foot stomping by the moderator, or anyone else, is going to stop them. In my opinion, the best approach is to give potential cheaters a better alternative. So my trial balloon is a separate category of entry for reloaders (half score) along with tips on how to play a better honest game. You will still have cheaters, but maybe fewer than you have in the current contest.

I'll state my opinion again, that cheating only cheats the person from becoming a better player. That the best way learn how to play the game is without using a crutch such as reloading. I will also state for the record that I have completed two game of the months (Jan and Feb) and have not reloaded from the autosave folder for any reason. The game has not crashed, and I generally do not make mismoves with important pieces. I wish all the other submitters would play by the same rules, but realize that this is not reality.

 

[SirPleb]

The current list looks great to me. I like which ones you have green and which are red. (Red at this time are No Palace no corruption, Bombard anywhere, Reloading, and Read the spoiler thread.)

"Scout resource denial" is the only black at this time. I haven't played it, am not sure which category I'd put it in. I think that Aeson is the best person to make this call, he knows best how powerful it is and how much work it takes. If I understand correctly, there's an oversight in the programming which allows one to park a Scout and not have it viewed as a military unit. So there's no diplomatic consequence, even if the resource ends up inside the AI's sphere of influence? I.e. it will never insist that you move out? This doesn't sound likely to be an opportunity in every game, but it does seem to me like it could be over-powering when possible. I would guess it could also be accomplished with a worker. So if disallowed, perhaps it should be called "non-military resource denial"?

Regarding the red "Reloading" item: In the final writeup I do think it would be good to describe this and its purpose in detail. If you decide that reloading for finger trouble is ok, make that explicit and explain why it is different. (It is of course a separate principle from foreknowledge and trial/error.) And perhaps be explicit that reloading to get past a crash bug is ok - I had thought that went without saying but recent discussions suggest that perhaps it is not obvious to everyone.

Any comment on the idea that reloading one turn to avoid accidental Domination would be ok? Aeson, Duke of Marlbrough, and I recently talked about this in the HOF context and we now understand that it is ok in the HOF context.

 

[Aeson]

The Scout will eventually have to be withdrawn, but how long it can stay seems to be determined by the relative power of the AI to the player. It ranges anywhere from 20 turns on up. In the first game I used this, I had a Scout on an Iroquois Iron resource, right next to one of their cities from about 3000BC until the start of the AD's. Higher barbarian settings can make it more difficult to get scouts into position, but the AI usually does a good job of protecting its territory against barbarian attacks. It isn't a bug, but probably more of an oversight. Like pop rushing it most likely wasn't meant to be so powerful of a tactic. Whether it is allowed or not is fine by me, just so long as we are all on the same page. I would think it should be allowed, as the AI does deal with the Scouts, just not effectively, or taking advantage of it themselves (like most of the other "greens").

I think the rest of the list is just about right. The reds are all things which seem to have been against Firaxis' vision for the game (bugs, things they specifically tried to limit). The greens are just powerful tactics that were allowed to exist, even if they weren't meant to be so effective.

 

[Aeson]

This threat from the general forum introduces another "feature" for the list.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16146

It is basically a god mode that is activated by saving the game with the following name and then reloading it.

1_multipart_xF8FF_2_challenge.SAV

Obviously one for the "red" part of the list

 

[seghillian]

Interesting thread.

How about the exploit of maxing out the map just to get a high score long after the game is won!

Seriously, I haven't submitted any GOTMs so I have no vested interest in this but it's intriguing to read the exploits available and what's regarded as fair. I've played 2 of the GOTM's just to see what scores are achievable. I didn't use any outrageous cheats but by the letter of the law certainly reloaded if I had done something really dumb (like forgetting an ungarrisoned city for example) as opposed to a basic strategic error.

Looking at the top scores it's clear that people have used the maxing out technique to get the high score. That's fine. The score introduces some sort of competitive element and if a high score is the target then why not? I know that my life is too short to bother with such a technique but I take my hat off to those prepared to have the patience to do this! The GOTM also features fastest wins by each different victory method so there is plenty there to aim for if a player wants to win quickly without regard to maxing the score.

So I find the thing very interesting in terms of seeing the different ways to play and how people went about achieving the different victories. I don't care much whether or not they reloaded. (Reloading is a little less powerful than in CIV and CIV II because the random number seed is saved) I'm not too bothered if they used any of the proposed "banned exploits" but then I would want to see some annotation in the results table (NPNC - no palace no corruption used, SDR - scout denies resource or whatever). I actually enjoy the NPNC method - it's fun, and that's what I play the game for. Obviously, the long range bombard is a bug and should not be used in any circumstances, and the use of saved game editors would also be pointless but apart from that I'm interested in all ways of winning.

Of course, if I was competing, maybe I'd be more worried about others possibly "cheating".

 

[marshalljames]

Jeez Sorry Bill If you think my rhetoric was a little harsh.But this naive opinion that everyone is honest,or even a majority of people are honest is a fallacy.
Our baggage checking system assumed most people were honest and look what that got us.
I recently loaded one of the sav's from a top players game.
I played his move(what I thoght was his move,everyone out in an attack stack)and lost the battle 50% of the time.So even when you have the odds in your favour you can still lose.Which leads me to believe that even some of the top players re-load if the battle doesn't pan out.(Beginning Warrior Gambit for example)
Just because you say so,doen't make it so.Seems before I came along many of you were living in a happy little dream world(la-di-da-da)where everyone is a happy little honest person (that their is some sought of masonic lodge happenning here).Sorry but if that were true their would be a lot less poverty and despair in this world.
And to those who take it personal,Why do think I'm talking about you?Guilty conscience?
So the scout is out,as a human player would kill it right away.

I think I good measuring stick of how legal the move is could be,could you get away with it in a multi-player game or against a real human player,if the answer is no then the exploit should be illegal.

 

[Matrix]

Originally posted by marshalljames
Jeez Sorry Bill If you think my rhetoric was a little harsh.But this naive opinion that everyone is honest,or even a majority of people are honest is a fallacy.

If you're convinced of the evilness of the people, that's your problem. Everyone who plays the GOTM wants to have fun with it. If we can make it clear to everyone how much reloading can spoil the game, then most likely most will listen.

Originally posted by marshalljames
Seems before I came along many of you were living in a happy little dream world(la-di-da-da)where everyone is a happy little honest person (that their is some sought of masonic lodge happenning here).Sorry but if that were true their would be a lot less poverty and despair in this world.

Hey, we're not playing against Saddam Hussain and Bin Laden! Anyone, including you, can see how much reloading or any form of cheating can spoil the GOTM. If you're so convinced that people cheat (in whatever way), why do you participate anyway? What's the use? As I said before: the ranking is totally not representative anymore. So how can you keep having interest in the GOTM?

 

[Matrix]

Ok, I'll take your advice and will allow the non-military resource denial.

Originally posted by SirPleb
Regarding the red "Reloading" item: In the final writeup I do think it would be good to describe this and its purpose in detail. If you decide that reloading for finger trouble is ok, make that explicit and explain why it is different. (It is of course a separate principle from foreknowledge and trial/error.) And perhaps be explicit that reloading to get past a crash bug is ok - I had thought that went without saying but recent discussions suggest that perhaps it is not obvious to everyone.

I thought of this myself as well, but it'll be hard to reach everyone. By far not all the GOTM participants read the rules page even. But I'll try to get everyone's attention. Perhaps TF and I will have to become irritating and show a page with rules before you're able to get the savegame.

 

[Taé Shala]

As I have said elsewhere:
"It took hours for me to choose to grab an other city or not. It is part of the thrill to get much land and milk the map.

If you are to greedy it is your own fault.
So this is a comparison of skill; and if you are skilled enough you won´t win by accident."

The scout tactics seems ok to me.

If you will get into any war with the civ, one of the first things will be the lost of the scout.

It is on your own risk, so you may use it.

@ MJ
GotM is like playing sports.
I prefer playing sports for fun. I don´t punch anyone even when the referee isn´t watching.
In GotM you can´t earn any profit. You only compete for fun. So there is no need to play unfair.
The CoH is the same thing as "fair play" in normal sports.

 

[Pggar]

Originally posted by Matrix
1_multipart_xF8FF_2_challenge.SAV
Rename the savegame to 1_multipart_xF8FF_2_challenge.SAV and you'll be able to see the whole map and change stuff, like changing the production in an AI city.

You should change this to:
multi.SAV
When you rename the savegame (or even save the game) including the fragment "multi" in your .SAV file, you'll be able to see the whole map and change stuff, like the production in an AI city.

 

[BillChin]

Sadly, in my opinion, one of the biggest costs of cheating is a habitual cheater becomes convinced that everyone else is a cheater. No amount of evidence or testimonials can sway a cheater from this belief. A cheater often colors the world with a very dark brush. This may be the most powerful argument against cheating, and its highest punishment. These dark beliefs are not limited to harmless pursuits such as the GOTM, and often extend into every part of life.

As for 50% combat odds, I wait for about 98% odds in my favor before launching the first attack in a war, and those odds increase as the war progresses. I expect some other players do similar. In my strategy article, I suggest waiting for 10+ swordsmen or 20+ horsemen to launch a war. What are the odds for 10 veteran swordsmen or 20 horsemen against one or two regular spearmen?

As for la-di-da-da land, you do have a point. Matrix seems disappointed that so many people admit to some form of against the rules reloads in the survey. How many of these are in the top ten scorers? I do not know. I would guess about the same as the general population of submitters (20%). I think it is naive to believe that a little education and foot stomping are going to eliminate cheating. It may help a little at the margin for those that did not know what they were doing is against the rules. However, there are some who know exactly what they are doing and are looking for the most effective ways to cheat to pump their score.

There is only so much the adminstrators can do. I give them credit for trying. This a competition for fun only, so strict policing is not a good way to go. I believe that about 20% will cheat, some more than others, some more effectively than others, and that about 80% will play the game according to the spirit of the rules.

Originally posted by marshalljames
Jeez Sorry Bill If you think my rhetoric was a little harsh.But this naive opinion that everyone is honest,or even a majority of people are honest is a fallacy.
Our baggage checking system assumed most people were honest and look what that got us.
I recently loaded one of the sav's from a top players game.
I played his move(what I thoght was his move,everyone out in an attack stack)and lost the battle 50% of the time.So even when you have the odds in your favour you can still lose.Which leads me to believe that even some of the top players re-load if the battle doesn't pan out.(Beginning Warrior Gambit for example)
Just because you say so,doen't make it so.Seems before I came along many of you were living in a happy little dream world(la-di-da-da)where everyone is a happy little honest person (that their is some sought of masonic lodge happenning here).Sorry but if that were true their would be a lot less poverty and despair in this world.
And to those who take it personal,Why do think I'm talking about you?Guilty conscience?
So the scout is out,as a human player would kill it right away.

I think I good measuring stick of how legal the move is could be,could you get away with it in a multi-player game or against a real human player,if the answer is no then the exploit should be illegal.

 

[Matrix]

As you hopefully saw in the announcement, the pages have been updated. So what do you think?

 

[LaRo]

Reading the *spoiler talk* is not allowed but writing seem to be allowed.
Maybe we should ban the people that write the*spoiler talk*.
For example, if Erikkk write a *spoiler talk* for GOTM5, he won't be able to submit his game.