What is required to achieve mastery in Civ3?

[Chicken Pizza]

In an action/adventure game, you can get better than most, even among the best if you're commited, just by physical training.

In a strategy game, every step forward in your development is dependent on others advice. Nobody reads about a glitch or trick in Civilization then starts a game to practice it for a week.

The facts to play the game to perfection is already there. Why would I want to compete with people that has read the latest ten years of posts and have no life?

Moderator Action: Please do not insult fellow posters - we're called fanatics for a reason! --NZ
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Lanzelot]

Moderator Action:
I have moved this post into its separate thread. As much as you have a valid point here, I fail to see the connection to the topic of the "Future of Civ3 GOTM" thread, where we discuss organizational questions around running the GOTM competition.
Lanzelot

 

[Lanzelot]

Why would I want to compete with people that has read the latest ten years of posts and have no life?

I can say from own experience that -- contrary to other strategy games like Chess or Go -- in Civ3 it is possible to learn enough strategy to compete successfully with the best and still "have a life". I would consider my life as pretty "ordinary", wife, two kids, standard job. It is basically a question of how you prioritize your time. I spent no more time on Civ3 than other people spend on watching TV. (We don't have a TV, so that saves a lot of time...)

 

[Chicken Pizza]

Whatever. Competing in GOTM is just boring work, a lot of patience and robotically using what you've learned.

You've even removed the element of chance for winning or scoring good as a newcomer, by turning off settlers from huts and iron moving.

Maybe there's lessons to learn from Texas Hold'em, which is a marathon game but wouldn't be any fun without the excitement of the next card being turned over.

GOTM is a monthly event for the elite, and I think you want it that way.

 

[CKS]

I'd hardly say I'm an elite player, and I enjoy GOTM and COTM a lot. There are few enough players and a bunch of different ways to win so that it isn't hard to win an award if that is what you want, but for me it isn't so much about competition as it is about a shared experience. I'm trying to be better about posting in spoiler threads, but this past year has sucked up my time, so I haven't done much lately.

I don't micromanage well. I don't plan for rings in GOTM well. I know how to play more efficiently, but I play the way that is fun for me, even when it doesn't give me my desired results speedily. Still I enjoy playing and occasionally winning. I'm sorry you don't enjoy it.

Lately the no-settlers-from-huts thing has been glitchy, as people have popped settlers and great leaders, and the chance to pop a town has never been removed. I like the reduction in random events, mostly, though I'd really like playing with scientific great leaders (even more if it worked as described in my paper copy of the manual).

I think there are enough options in playing the game that there is no one way to "play the game to perfection." For me, playing it for fun is best. Others like to role-play. Others like to optimize their particular style. I hope you can find a way to play the games of the month that is fun for you. If not, I hope you continue to enjoy playing Civ3 in other ways.

 

[Puppeteer]

I'm not sure where the dissatisfaction comes from. Sure, it can be disheartening to think you're getting pretty good at the game and then realize others can play more effectively, but I don't think the point is to 'win' or give everyone a chance to win.

Even with reduced random events the RNG can make too much of a difference in otherwise similar games. And early play choices may have compounding effects in the future based on events and circumstances impossible to predict.

I once had my iron disappear right after 1000BC in a COTM in a game I was depending on it. I thought it was preprogrammed to disappear right after the QSC (quick start challenge) for a twist, but no I just happened to hit a bad bit of RNG at a suspicious time; I'm the only one that happened to.

There was another *OTM where a nearby AI opponent wiped out a rather significant portion of the human players very early in the game but for others including me they just walked their strong starting units right on by and didn't attack. That sucked and didn't show up in pre-competition testing, but it just goes to show how RNG can adversely affect identical starts.

GOTM/COTM take effort to create, organize, and score. And it takes effort for the participants to play a game style they may not be used to playing in personal games (difficulty, civ, low-food starts, etc.), and it takes effort by the participants to describe their game in the spoiler threads. The benefit for me as NOT one of the better players is to see how others handle similar scenarios and how that works out for them. It doesn't mean I'll play exactly like them, but I'll learn things.

I understand that it's not necessarily appealing to (from my perspective) play a much higher difficulty than I'm used to with additional restrictions and then have my results compared to better players publicly with zero chance to get a trophy. But don't think of it as a competition; it's a novel form of multiplayer; a shared experience on a common start to a game. I always learn something when I participate.

I haven't participated in a long time, though, because I have a tendency to overthink the game and also to almost never complete a game, and it is a bunch of extra work to document the game play effectively. But I'm glad it's still going after almost 20 years, and I appreciate the efforts of those who run it and participate.

 

[Puppeteer]

I'll also add that as a learning tool and even as fun, you can 'participate' or train in *past* COTMs. The old downloads and threads are still there, and you can go download the starting save and avoid the spoiler threads until you reach those checkpoints and then read what others did with the same start. I'm not sure if necro'ing an old thread for your modern spoiler updates are frowned upon or encouraged, but it can certainly be a self-learning exercise by playing along after the fact.

Same with succession games or training day games. The opening saves are usually posted in the threads, and if they haven't disappeared you can 'play along' retroactively.

Actually, anywhere there are downloadable saves you can play along and learn something. Stories and tales posts sometimes share their saves, and occasionally someone asks for help in general discussion on a 'hopeless game' and uploads the save. I've had an unexpected amount of fun trying to recover from their hopeless position.

 

[Fergei]

If it is mastery you want then there is:

- the whole War Academy section
- playing online multiplayer in something like the Civ3 Steam ladder and picking up pointers

Personally its not mastery I'm after and why I've dipped my toes into the GotM recently is to sample maps set up by other players to see how it changes the game (and potentially give me ideas for my own maps).

 

[Chicken Pizza]

I'd hardly say I'm an elite player, and I enjoy GOTM and COTM a lot. There are few enough players and a bunch of different ways to win so that it isn't hard to win an award if that is what you want

I didn't say elite player, I meant socially, which is what I see *OTM being a competition in. If that's what you want, fine.

Moderator Action: Both PDMA and swearing are against our rules so rest of post deleted --NZ
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[CKS]

This seems a peculiar response to my statement that I hope you continue to enjoy playing Civ 3, even if GOTM isn't for you.

Thread splitting happens on a fairly regular basis. The intent is not to cause people problems, but to make it easier for people to find and respond to posts. If you'd like a different title, I'm sure Lanzelot would be happy to rename it for you. (As an aside, I don't see anything in your original post specific to GOTM except that you originally posted it in the GOTM subforum.)

I don't understand how GOTM is a social competition. If you'd like to explain, I'd be happy to read what you write. If you want to drop it, that is also fine with me.

I think the reason GOTM and Civ 3 HOF don't get much attention is that Civ 3 is quite old, with a lot of newer versions to play and some technical difficulties involved with running PTW on modern computers. While many of us would like more people to play the games, we are somewhat resigned to the current situation. It is the only thing that gives me hope of realizing my HOF dream, so it does have a silver lining, I suppose.

 

[templar_x]

GOTM is a monthly event for the elite, and I think you want it that way.

this is of course utterly and absolutely wrong!







it has become a QUATERLY event for the elite now.

t_x

 

[Chicken Pizza]

I don't understand how GOTM is a social competition. If you'd like to explain, I'd be happy to read what you write. If you want to drop it, that is also fine with me.

Basically, the problem is that I suffer from autism and paranoid personality, and admittely (though not among my medical diagnoses and possibly more of a symptom) narcissism.

If I'm allowed within 30 feet of a forum, I'll make a fool of myself, and that's not feeling sorry for myself, its just a fact which I hope we can agree on.

COTM, GOTM and succession games can't really be enjoyed without having social skills and being "connected to the matrix". As someone else wrote in the thread, it's not really a competion, it's about learning from each others.

And computer players aren't directly famous for their social skills, so to attract more people, my thought is that you should give them a better chance to compete.

It still doesn't have to be a competition, you're getting me all wrong if you think that. What I want is a fun, private experience without knowing that somebody else is doing better anyway, or worse for that matter.

One suggestion could be changing the game rules everytime, from making buildings cost 3 times more or republic having 3 shields upkeep per unit, to things like 3 food from ocean tiles.

Another one to make stuff more random, like giving each player their own set of opponents from a pool of games.

There's probably better examples, but to be honest I don't even know if it would help much to attract young whipper-snappers. Maybe Civ 3 is dead.

Off-topic, I do have a good idea to give a last dying breath to Diablo 2 before it's history though. All items and their attributes are in a couple of Excel files, maybe even enemies HP and other things, and could easily be randomized by anyone with some scripting ability.

 

[templar_x]

on the more obvious topic, i do not think there is anything i cann add. on your other topic, your first two lines hold true for most of the internet as we see it today even without these medical diagnoses that you mention, which i personally esteem very sad given where the idea came from and which potential it seemed to have to me back in the early years.
t_x