What is the most useless unique unit?

[nfw]

Oromo Warriors are definitely not the worst unique unit. They are actually the best Gunpowder based unique unit. As already mentioned, they are best promoted to Drill IV which is possible with Barracks and Theocracy, Vassalage or Great Military Instructor. They dominate all pre-gunpowder units and are a great complement to Cannon seige units. There is no need to wait for Rifling to upgrade them to Riflemen, although such an upgrade is one of the best.

That's not true though, knights ignore first strike and I think, can get pinch so they counter Oromo hard (bet the Italians feel silly now)

 

[babar]

Landsknechts are only useless if you never tried the funny Engi rush with Charly.
Pikes are good units, and when you get another good bonus on them..how can so many say they are among the worst :b

I've tried this twice (IMM), won comfortably, and they never did anything. They don't attack cities obviously, since you have trebs. They are worse than maces at attacking a lot of things in the open field. Stack defence is not a great reason to rush for a tech, but even as defenders they are very unlikely affect an outcome unless the stack is very small and just the right combination of units attack you...

 

[Rusty Edge]

I landed on the Panzer side of the modern UU fence because it requires a resource.

 

[Fippy]

I've tried this twice (IMM), won comfortably, and they never did anything. They don't attack cities obviously, since you have trebs. They are worse than maces at attacking a lot of things in the open field. Stack defence is not a great reason to rush for a tech, but even as defenders they are very unlikely affect an outcome unless the stack is very small and just the right combination of units attack you...

Not sure what your point here is
Maces need Civil Service, Landsknechts need nothing that Trebs do not need too.

And on open field? They attack everything better cept bows, which often are not present in AI stacks at this point.

Maybe try this on Deity, and you may appreciate this strong unit and not having to tech more for Maces.

 

[babar]

Not sure what your point here is
Maces need Civil Service, Landsknechts need nothing that Trebs do not need too.

Trebuchets are what's worth rushing for. In a large stack with a backbone of pikes, crossbows and trebuchets, landsknechts add nothing, at least in my experience. They're like Phalanxes in a stack that already has spears in it.

And on open field? They attack everything better cept bows, which often are not present in AI stacks at this point.

To reduce longbows and crossbows to just "bows" is perhaps slightly disingenuous . I'm sure I'm not getting to Engi as quickly as you, but even on IMM they form a large proportion of the AIs stacks pretty soon after I get Engineering. It's pretty frustrating if you've got no easy way of killing longbows in the open field.

Maybe try this on Deity, and you may appreciate this strong unit and not having to tech more for Maces.

I'm not sure how Deity would help me. Maces come with great economic techs too, so I guess my point about them is that they are a more solid beeline if your main interest in Engineering is Landsknechts. I admit it's not really a fair point though...

 

[CivNoobie]

how is ballista elephant useless?

it's a war elephant with a negligible benefit...it's still a benefit.

I'd think Numidian cavalry would be a better candidate for this topic, talking about a waste of hammer.

 

[CivNoobie]

Landsknecht.
One tech away from musketmen which will have the promotions from Charlemagne's PRO trait.

I don't think it's a landsknecht issue but more of a pikeman issue.

 

[Manco Capac]

The Phalanx is awesome. For MP.

 

[TheSunIsDark]

The Phalanx is awesome. For MP.

Why? You'll have spears as stack/city defenders as well... unless Rome is loading galleys near you, in which case almost all axes in the stack. You'll need spears as well in case chariots jump off the boats rather than praetorians. The lack of a chariot weakness just helps the idiots who don't use stack defenders.

 

[Tatran]

^
You probably meant something else than chariots, because the phalanx has a 100% bonus only against chariots. It's almost a regular axeman.

 

[sinimusta]

One can save hammers with having only phalanx as a city defense instead of axe+spear. Or make more phalanxes and be able to defend against enemy axes or chariots with the same unit. Much more efficient.

 

[Kallikrates]

I have not played enough different aggressive games, but I think I liked the phalanx better as an improved spearman in vanilla/warlords. With promotions a vanilla phalanx would give elephants a hard time.
The Hwacha was also much more powerful in warlords, but it is still far from worst in BtS, I'd say.

Because many people will (understandably) abolish games without the necessary resources or at least avoid early wars, I think the resourceless UUs are generally somewhat underrated and (ballista) elephants overrated. In my experience one ends up frequently without ivory, but far less often without metals or horses.
I have not played enough games with Monty, but despite the resource-independence I am not fond of jaguars. One has to research IW anyway, so they come kind of late and without copper one is still screwed, because one needs axemen. One should probably just accept that jags and dogs have to be used differently than their generic counterparts.
OTOH I cannot understand how someone could describe Berserkers as useless. On emperor amphibious warfare is feasible without siege and even on a landmap they enjoy the 10% city attack bonus and keep their amphi promo for later upgrades to grens/rifles which gives great options for amphibious assaults with frigates having bombed away the defenses and makes them clearly better than maces. And there is synergy with Ragnars AGG trait. They are not game-changing like praets or WCs, but really quite nice.

The bowman may be useful in peculiar situations. If one has no metals they could back up chariots or Horse archers, maybe. But I guess I'd vote for jaguar or bowman as worst among the pre-modern units.

 

[Kallikrates]

of the ones left out

Quechua, Praetorian, War chariot, Keshik, Fast Worker, Cataphract, Musketeer, Redcoat, Carrack, Cho Ko Nu

I'd say the Musketeer is a better candidate for "useless" than Janissary and Oromo. The Carrack is obviously very situational. All the others are quite strong, although only the first three possibly OP. (The redcoat was way OP in vanilla, but now only quite good.)

What are the most useless standard units? Apart from some industrial/modern ones, probably Musketmen, I guess. They can be easily skipped (this may be different on slower speeds). Crossbowmen I only built occasionally. But they are not useless if one is forced into an unplanned medieval war (I'd still prefer knights as protection for macemen and lbs for city defense).
If one tries for a peaceful early game (before trebs or cuirs) many units will probably be skipped, but all of them may be necessary in some circumstances.

 

[Tristan_C]

Because the Ballista is not stronger than a regular WE. As a UU it provides little to no significant bonus over base...really none at all. Furthermore, its "bonus" does not carry forward with upgrade - not that I'd care with that one. Being able to target mounted units in the open field is not a bonus IMO and in some cases a malus. Ballista has for a long time been considered the worst UU by a considerable portion of the community. I'm sorry, but if anyone is trying to sweeten up the Ballista Elephant, you are just talking nonsense. Cataphant warfare is often effective on any level, but that doesn't mean an Elephant UU is good just because it exists when it has no real bonus to speak off. Give it shock promo instead or even just Combat 1 or something and it is a whole different story

...I think the resourceless UUs are generally somewhat underrated and (ballista) elephants overrated.

It's not a good UU, I know. Ivory isn't everywhere. The UU's ability is to bypass counters, but it's almost as marginal as it gets. But it's a war elephant. Thanks civnoobie. That makes it more likely to be useful than, say, the Navy SEAL or Panzer (I had selected SEAL in this poll on similar grounds that, well, the panzer is a tank).

This is not a matter of sweet talking a unit— I am only suggesting that some are even less useful.

I'm a fan of the resourceless UUs. Kallikrates points out (and I'm sure he's right) that that most peoples' contempt for them comes from constantly regening maps. I hate regening maps in single player, and in LAN games it's not an issue. Plus you can tick raging barbs with a measure of confidence! That feels nice. Jag is almost certainly the weakest of these UUs since iron is usually in reach.

add---

All I know about the Landsknecht is that it has really fierce devotees and critics. Is there not a problem with its timing? I know some UUs like the cataphract and samurai would get more love except that they have to deal with LBs.

 

[TheSunIsDark]

Resourceless UUs are often pretty good. In one game, my only early strategic resource was ivory. But I was playing as Arabia, so I could bring Camel Archers along with elepults.

 

[Fippy]

Ballista Ellies are not that bad in crazy war games (with AW being the extreme).
If AIs run around with big stacks, it's and advantage if you can pick out their mounted units and still hide somewhere (like attacking from your city instead of only waiting for them to gather huge stacks). This becomes really nice once they have knights, with their first strike immunity you will normally fear those most in AW games cos you will have some super drill longbows sitting in your cities.

For Landsknechts, they are dismissed usually for the same reason why Conqs are not always getting enuf respect. Many players will just not do tech beelines that make them really good. Plus LK come with Charly, a leader that many dislike. If they would come with let's say Suleiman, a great character for Engi rushes, ýou would probably read different stories. Similar will be true for Spain.

But both units have something that Praets etc. do not have..you feel like not using cheesy stuff when trying to get them early enuf :b
So LK > Praets..!

 

[Tatran]

After some thinking I've changed my mind.
The Greek phalanx is IMHO the worst UU. It only has 100% defense versus chariots.
So, it's nothing but an ordinary axeman if the enemy doesn't attack with chariots.

 

[Kallikrates]

Yes, but that means that it is the only ancient unit without a "counter". With a little promo and/or defense bonus it does not have to be afraid of anything before elephants and xbows. You can have a stack of them without also taking spears along (granted, that's not such a big deal, but it is a certain advantage). Still, I liked the vanilla spear-phalanx better

 

[Fintourist]

The Phalanx is awesome. For MP.

Why? You'll have spears as stack/city defenders as well... unless Rome is loading galleys near you, in which case almost all axes in the stack. You'll need spears as well in case chariots jump off the boats rather than praetorians. The lack of a chariot weakness just helps the idiots who don't use stack defenders.

What sinimusta wrote before, and:

In MP you often don't want to create a situation where you march in with a big mixed ancient stack of 1-movers, because that means you have used quite a bit of your resources that could have gone into expansion. However, you might want to cripple your neighbor or try your luck with a smaller amount of units and surprise attack. Phalanx reduces the possibility that your axe-attack fails miserably, because your opponent has chariots online.

That said, I would not consider Phalanx as an especially great UU, but still useful.

 

[AdamCrock]

fast workers ..... most useless