What is the point of paratroopers? They suck!

To be honest, I think that both paratroopers AND airpower sucks in C3c - so much so that I wish there was an option in the game to use the Civ 2 version as an alternate.

It might not have been very good either, but I believe it is better than the C3c version because it allows "hand's on" control of your Aircraft. I also think that Aircraft Ranges should be increased for better use ability, 20 to 30.

You should be able to overfly large continents with later airplanes. The flight tech should have introduced aircraft up to WW 1 first with very short ranges. Advanced flight should have added the next generation of WW 2 aircraft with the type of range mentioned above.

Once you move up to jets etc. there should be a range that is equivilant to the RR range, certainly the range of quarter the length of any map per turn at the very least.

As for paratroopers, I think that they should have the same attack as Infantry with the same or a little better defense as they currently have. I also believe that EVERY ground foot unit in the Civ series should move 2, rather than 1 square. This would allow them to be used better offensively.

It would also allow Paratroopers to drop and attack - something I feel is way whacked for being disallowed in the combat system. I understand that the combat is supposed to be representative of individual campaigns, but cripes! It does not take two years for a paratrooper to recover and attack after a drop if it is even half way on target - 6 to 12 hrs max. based on some of the nastiest historical drops.

To me, that justifies a drop and attack allowance for them. I'm aware of the "trying to balance the game" argument, so please don't bore me with the "can't use the turn length in years to equate the moving characteristics of units" ploy. I've heard enough of that lame excuse. Too many strategic board games I played in the past used fast movement to great effect and game play. No one will convince me that it can't be done with strategic comp. games.

To me, this lame excuse should not prevent Paras from dropping and attacking in the same turn or allowing ground foot, arty and other currently 1 move units to move two.

Of course, I also believe that mech units should move at 4 to 6, Naval ships from 5 to as much as that which let's them go all the way around the world depending on the type (Nuke ships can circumnavigate the globe in way less than a year, as can many industrial ships - heck, the USS Constitution did it in 1848 in less than 2, and she was a heavy sailing frigate, for cryin' out loud.) and horse units at 3 or 4 with only knights and heavy armoured horse at the lower number.

I also think that workers should move 3 as roads, indicative that the unit, which did not exist in this form, is actually a representation of labor gathered at any given point of construction, mining, etc., rather than a large body of folks that move from point A to point B.

I may as well mention settlers, which I think should move at a straight 3 and have many of the same abilities as workers, as they did in civ 2. Workers just allow an extra unit to do what only settlers could do in civ 2, which I think was a good change.

I just believe that units in this game are way to slow - I prefer a FAST, FAST moving game. It may screw up my turn/year ratio but it is a whole lot more fun to zip, zip with military units than to crawl around waiting centuries or a millinia (translation - 5 - 20 turns in Ancient times) for your archer or swordsman to even reach an enemy you declared war on.

Just sayin'. :D
 
To be honest, I think that both paratroopers AND airpower sucks in C3c - so much so that I wish there was an option in the game to use the Civ 2 version as an alternate.
Rise and Rule has helicopters that you can use like the old Civ2 units. Technically they're land units, like tanks, but they're helicopters. You can't fly over water, but I think you can rebase them.
 
@estrongblade

My instant thought is this: What about paratroopers that drops down on their target, and that way fight in the same turn. I think foot units carrying equipment should not move more than 1. This way they could still be able to attack right away.

Call To Power got some units that can do that, and I think it works fine.
 
Best use for paratroopers I can see, is dropping them on your own stack of tanks or cavalry after they've left the slower infantry defenders behind.

That way you don't have to slow down for the infantry to catch up and let the paratroopers take the brunt of an AI attack.

Could be somewhat useful. Never needed to though.
 
estrongblade: your proposal on unit movement sounds well and good, but that won't work for a big reason:

(plug your ears now, you won't like this)

Game balance.

Don't shoot me yet, I'm not using the "turns/years disconnect" argument here.

If a naval unit could circle the globe in one turn, there would be no way for the unit to be intercepted by another civ's navy. At least, not until the unit had already unloaded it's troops/missles/big nasty explosive shells. That is entirely unrealistic. If you have the capability to move your BBs from home port to the enemy's coast, bombard, and move back to base, how would you ever lose your BB? When will the AI's bombers be able to bomb your ships? How would you be able to defend your own coastline? Such fast "realistic" movement is actually not realistic at all. In an rts, sure, go ahead and make the units fast. The enemy can react to you in time then. But in tbs, it doesn't work.

The same concept can be applied to land units. If you give them too much movement, you can be utterly wiped out before even having a chance to defend yourself. The current rates provide an advance barrier to keep from the game going from great to a loss in one turn.

Your aircraft ranges aren't that realistic either. In WWII, the long range bombers had a range smaller than would be comparable to the bombers in the game. Stealth bombers have a range smaller than that of their game counter parts. It is possible for a jet to fly around the world, but it would require re-fueling in midair from tanker planes that are kept at airports around the world. A flight around the world without such refuelings is currently not an option. Not to mention the fact that it would be expensive as heck.
 
Bombers powerful? Hmmm. Disagree. They miss more than they hit and if you don't have a gazillion of them they don't seem to do the damage you'd expect. I also think that bombers are more effective than stealth bombers through some undetermined game glurg that seems to see them miss too much - more so than bombers. I could be wrong...

Psweetman - consider yourself....NOT shot. Yours is a valid series of points. I still believe that because the combat system operates, at least with ground units, the extra movement isn't a problem. You see, an attacking unit just does not win as much in the battle, especially depending on terrain. Look at how barbarian horsemen attack in the regular game.

In spite of the barbarian bonus, which is only in the lower lvls of play anyway, there are usually 12 or so and when they jump one of your units, they'll attack all at once. If there is only one of your units, it will still take out multiple barbs before it is destroyed, regardless of the bonus.

This is what an attacking enemy would have to learn to do, even with fast movement. If you're dealing with a playable enemy, they are not necessarily going to punch your lines, if the lines are properly set, without having gobs of troops to attk with. All fast movement does is change player strategies, both offensive AND defensive.

The enemy would probably have to have three units to your 1 in order to have half a chance of getting through. If you present a line that equals his attacking force, it's unlikely that the combat system will allow him much of an advantage. What the faster speed does is to allow quicker movement to reach an enemy sooner, not the ability to slice through an enemy. Only the combat system can allow that. Like most, it favors the defender - especially in civ 3. If blitz is NOT enabled for the units in question, they can't attack but once. Blitz, however, turns a fast tank or mech infantry unit into something that one needs guard against. That's what forts, walls and barracades are for.

It also would make every player on the board rethink their movement and unit placement strategy, which everyone would want to do under the circumstances. New strategies might fail here and there to start, but after a few games of play, you would soon find out how much more fun it is to move fast, fast, fast. The actual combat would not change; the new strategies would protect the strong and weed out the weak.


Navy - that's a tough one. Again you make a valid point, but ships are easier wiped out in ports than at sea. So joe blow runs his ships up and attempts to loose a missile or a bombard. He takes out a bldg or a ground unit and runs back to his port to hide. Your turn comes, you know there is a battleship in x-town. Shoot out a few ships of your own and sink that bugger. Threat neutralized. I also give combat ships blitz and bombard to a point. You don't want to see one of my BBs move next to one of yours in game - lethal sea and ground - :D

I am not suggesting anything that has not been done in tb board games from 20+ years ago. There are ways to allow fast movement while keeping balance as far as the combat is concerned. Learn the strategies, run with the big dogs. Ignor the strategies, crash and burn. That is how any civ game is played. Fast movement just makes you think harder.

Your best point is made with aircraft, and I must admit that this point is what saved you from the firing squad. I had not considered certain techs in my assessment, and you did. Bravo! :clap: I however, still maintain that because of the system of movement allowed, an extension of the base to base movement is valid.

It was possible to move a squadron of B-17s to England from California in less than a month. Units that reached England in 42-43-44 during WW 2 proved this time and again. Fighter units could also do this. I'm not really talking about the actual airbase to target ranges, although they, too could stand to be increased a point or two. My gripe is mostly with the base to base movements, which I feel are way too short.

Jazzmail - cool point, dude.

Sir_Lancelot - for foot unit movement, see above. Units that carried equipment were trained to carry it. We're not talking about old ladies, here. I believe that paras which drop on their targets are asking to get wiped, as happened in several places the night before Normandy. The idea is to drop them into a "safe" zones and move to secure an objective, fighting if necessary. Two movement, I think, allows this. One does not.

Turner - I am aware of that and you're right, that's pretty cool except for the water thing. Did you know that you can program a unit to load another into it on land, move with it and then unload it? Try this with a German or American Halftrack and a couple of foot units (you program them in the editor to only carry foot units). The downside is that you can't transport it by sea, even if it's empty.

Well, that's all I've got. Please let me know if I missed something. I was not trying to. Cya! ;) :) :D
 
Bombers powerful? Hmmm. Disagree. They miss more than they hit and if you don't have a gazillion of them they don't seem to do the damage you'd expect. I also think that bombers are more effective than stealth bombers through some undetermined game glurg that seems to see them miss too much - more so than bombers. I could be wrong...

Most players make a gazillion of whatever unit they plan to use to wheed out bad PRNG steaks. So that weakness is covered by definition.
 
Bombers powerful? Hmmm. Disagree. They miss more than they hit and if you don't have a gazillion of them they don't seem to do the damage you'd expect. I also think that bombers are more effective than stealth bombers through some undetermined game glurg that seems to see them miss too much - more so than bombers. I could be wrong...

Bombers are powerful IF you use them the right way. They have more range, more rate of fire and lethal bombard than the extremely powerful artillery. With Bombers, Cavalry are very effective at taking towns because the only units left behind after a good bombing are 1-2 redlined Infantry which can easily be taken out by a veteran Cavalry. Cavalry are only bad to use against Mech's and TOW's, and by then you will have tanks to kill the redlined defenders.

FWIW, stealth bombers have +50% attack compared to regular bombers, plus stealth.

In spite of the barbarian bonus, which is only in the lower lvls of play anyway, there are usually 12 or so and when they jump one of your units, they'll attack all at once. If there is only one of your units, it will still take out multiple barbs before it is destroyed, regardless of the bonus.

12 or so barbarian horsemen will kill multiple warriors fairly easily, but will struggle more against spears because a conscript is so much weaker. Veteran Horses will roll through AI's on Monarch and lower fairly easily, and I haven't tried on any higher. Also, horses dont suffer as many losses thanks to the glorious retreat. Assume an army of veteran 10 horses attack the city, and 5 lose. Roughly 3 of the losers will retreat instead of dying. (58% chane of retreat for veteran units)
 
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