what leader trait combinations are missing?

[Silence101]

If you have maxed out your wonders in your capital, chances are (barring the rarity that there are no other industrious leaders) that the non-industrious civs do not have many (if any) wonders in their production city. If you are forced to move wonder production to a secondary city, your bonus may be nerfed to be on par with non-industrious civs. To obsolete a trait like that seems rather silly.

I think your point assumes that a given industrious Civ's secondary city will be at an extreme disadvantage when compared to a non-industrious Civ's capital or primary wonder building city. I agree that that's a possible scenario you could run into, but I guess I just don't see that as being the typcial situation. Again, personally for me, it's common to have a few cities that can manage high amounts of production on par with my capital. Is that just my style of play?

Also, I don't see how wonder caps would promote city specialization. If anything it promotes city hybridization since you might have to get rid of windmills to build mines in order to maximize production for more wonders. And then you might have to get rid of some cottages to put in farms so your citizens don't starve.

I thinking more in terms of wonders like the GL where there's city specific benefits and also how wonders provide specific types of GP points which encourage you to run specific types of specialists to ensure you get the desired GP. I do see your point though, with encouraging hybridization. And granted most wonders don't provide city specific benefits. So, I just might have to give you this one.

 

[methane]

I think your point assumes that a given industrious Civ's secondary city will be at an extreme disadvantage when compared to a non-industrious Civ's capital or primary wonder building city. I agree that that's a possible scenario you could run into, but I guess I just don't see that as being the typcial situation. Again, personally for me, it's common to have a few cities that can manage high amounts of production on par with my capital. Is that just my style of play?

Most people have secondary cities with strong production. But an Industrious civ in the normal game can always try to get wonders in their best city. In your mod they can't. That's a nerf.

Not saying you have to change it, it's your mod, but I wouldn't want to see it in the normal game.

 

[Silence101]

Most people have secondary cities with strong production. But an Industrious civ in the normal game can always try to get wonders in their best city. In your mod they can't. That's a nerf.

Not saying you have to change it, it's your mod, but I wouldn't want to see it in the normal game.

I think it ends up being just a difference of personal preference - there were some good points brought up that I hadn't considered before when using a world wonder limit, so I'm glad to have people's input. Still, personally I like having the limit so I'll probably keep it.

 

[kniteowl]

lol if there was a World Wonder Cap I can see a lot of People moving their Capital, since the Palace is a National Wonder, the Ind Leader get a Hammer bonus building that too, sure you won't wonder spam anymore but it's still good building only the choice wonders.

 

[BYC]

I said a while ago that I think Spain with Industrial and Philosophical wouldn't be all that. I just think with their UU and UB, and the starting techs, it just wouldn't be too powerful.

Mysticism is good, but it doesn't work well with Fishing, imo. I always get really annoyed that getting a worker first does nothing. Obviously, I build something else, but I hate that it takes basically 3 techs before I can get to Bronze Working, and I find that so slow.

 

[Arlborn]

I get that you meant with restricted leaders, but I'm saying that the option of Unrestricted Leaders is present for all games, and therefore the idea that the Celt's UU and UB are weak makes no real difference. If I'm to play as Boudica, damn sure I'm going to choose a different civ to match. Maybe not Rome since that would just be too easy, but I def wouldn't settle for the Celt's UU/UB.

OK, but the traits were made with the celt civilization in mind. So they are balanced. Unrestrict leaders option is just it, an option which is not the vanila game.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Yeah, point taken. And to be honest, I hardly ever use that option. I like having the leaders fit their specific personalities and civs. I've tried games with the Unrestrict option and random personalities. It's just not my gig.

 

[Arlborn]

Yeah, point taken. And to be honest, I hardly ever use that option. I like having the leaders fit their specific personalities and civs. I've tried games with the Unrestrict option and random personalities. It's just not my gig.

I do agree with you on that.

 

[Hyoga]

Creative-Charismatic would be very, very strong.

Why? For Domination.

Charismatic plows through cities while Creative lets those captured cities expand their borders wayyyyyy sooner, getting you land fast. People think Creative is a cultural trait. No way. It's a warmonger trait for Domination.

It's also an excellent trait for early resource denial. And with Charismatic and valuable resources, get ready to conquer.

 

[Sjaramei]

Why does everyone feel Cha/Agg is so overpowered? Sure you get good melee fighters, but you get no financial support, and your empire can't expand forever because of maintenance and army upkeep. So those fancy fighters you are using aren't doing enough to make it "overpowered". Cha/Agg leans towards domination wins, and if you want that other traits are much better for it. (Cha/Org or Cha/Fin comes to mind)

Cha/Agg is balanced enough for me, and even if you pick Boudica of Rome it's not more overpowered than for instance Napoleon of Rome. (My highest score ever was with this combo, and it's more the Praets who are imba than the traits)

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

^^^disagreed. Unlike in "Chronicles of Riddick" you don't have to keep what you kill. Raze dem cities.

 

[Cvntpumeler]

^^^disagreed. Unlike in "Chronicles of Riddick" you don't have to keep what you kill. Raze dem cities.

Yeah I agree with Blitz. You only capture a city if it's extremely well developed and can already pay for itself. Otherwise you burn that sucker down and settle there later when your economy is fully developed. The real advantage of Boudica of Rome is to most easilly clear your continent quickly for your own later expansion.

 

[Lightwave]

A number of people have discussed wonder caps in cities of 3, 5, or #. Personally, I think it is a completely artificial way to enforce a game play mechanism on the player. There is no realistic reason other than nerfing a trait (yes, I know game balance is very important/perhaps more so than "realism," but the statement still holds). I actually feel the same way about the National Wonders limit though I have not modded the limit upwards.

If someone wants to build all wonders in his biggest production city. Fine. The "balance" is that he is not building units, and many people have already talked about "wasting" production on wonders in the game especially in multi-player. If another balance is desired, I might suggest simply making some of the wonders cost more hammers though that would actually increase the benefit of the Ind/Phi trait combo.

As far as the Phi/Ind combo, the whole game is largely about applying various synergies to win the game: SE/Representation, Organized/Rathaus, etc. I have not yet tried the Phi/Ind combo, but from the few that have talked about modding it, it does not appear so powerful as to sap the fun out of the game. I think it would be quite fun building loads of wonders since I have not been able to do that as much in CivIV as in previous games. There are definitely more balance issues in multiplayer, but I think the removal of the fun element should be the main guideline to nerf things (not meaning just traits here) rather than whether it is "powerful."

 

[Antilogic]

I always thought the National Wonder limit was bizarre...I was thinking of bumping it up to three per city, just to see how it would work out, but then I realized you could do ugly things like stack West Point, Heroic Epic, and Ironworks in a single city.

 

[MrFelony]

actually, i think stacking all thre in a city would be counter productive (pun? ) mainly because you could use your iron works city for other useful things like building important late game wonders or spaceship parts. your HE/WP city usually is a pretty good production city that will be able to pump even late game units out in 1, max 2 turns.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

What you would Stack would be HE/WP/ Red Cross in one city... Imagine, quick units that are at LEAST level 3 with free Medic (most of them) indeed your first promotion on most of them could be March

 

[Antilogic]

@MrFelony: If you play on Epic speed, like I do, then the extra production makes a more noticeable difference. You need much more production for a unit a turn on Epic/Marathon than you do on the faster game speeds.

 

[Spearthrower]

Production is King!

 

[methane]

@MrFelony: If you play on Epic speed, like I do, then the extra production makes a more noticeable difference. You need much more production for a unit a turn on Epic/Marathon than you do on the faster game speeds.

I play epic speed on huge maps. Usually my best production city gets iron works and targets wonders (though builds units sometimes), while my 2nd best gets heroic epic, west point, military academy, and any settled great generals. Usually in the late game it can make tanks in at most 2 turns.

 

[Swein Forkbeard]

Here are the leaders I would put in to get the final three trait combos.

Japan: Meiji (Organized, Protective)
Babylon: Nebuchadrezzar II (Industrious, Philosophical)
Poland: Sobieski (Charismatic, Creative)

Or we could resort to one of my previous ideas.

Olympian Empire (please help me think of a better name!)
UU: Cyber Ninja (Mechanized Infantry)
UB: Landfill (Recycling Center)
Leaders
Soren Johnson (Organized, Protective)
Michael Soracoe (Charismatic, Creative)
Caitlin Snaring (Philosophical, Industrious)